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[-] lugal@sopuli.xyz 92 points 1 month ago

Anarchism isn't the absence of rules but the absence of authority. Some anarchist ideas even replace the centralized authority figure with rules that apply to everyone and of cause free association so you are not forced to follow them and can move on instead

[-] photonic_sorcerer@lemmy.dbzer0.com 31 points 1 month ago

Without some kind of authority, how can those rules be enforced?

[-] explodicle@sh.itjust.works 18 points 1 month ago
[-] NatakuNox@lemmy.world 9 points 1 month ago

Rules are enforced by the collective not by a small minority essentially. Things like direct democracy doesn't contradict with their philosophy. Essentially middle management and above in all aspects of financial and political life would be abolished.

[-] june@lemmy.dbzer0.com 10 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Direct democracy doesn't only not contradict with anarchism, it is a core tenet of anarchism. After all, how do we get rid of unjustified hierarchy without creating a hierarchy free from rulership?

[-] lugal@sopuli.xyz 7 points 1 month ago

There is a whole debate within anarchism whether to use the term democracy or not. People on both sides of this semantical debate will have identical utopias but call them differently. Zoe Baker has a video essay about that on YouTube.

I like the term Direct Democracy since it shows my disagreement with parliamentary democracy while still using a term that's regarded as positive. "Our democracy isn't direct enough" will resonate with more people than "Democracy bad, anarchy good".

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[-] Dozzi92@lemmy.world 11 points 1 month ago

Publicly shun people. You're a rule breaker? You've been shunned by society and people who associate with you will be known associates of the shunned.

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[-] lugal@sopuli.xyz 8 points 1 month ago

Short answer: The community.

In small contexts, a mutual understanding is sufficient. There are "Radical Therapy" groups with no central therapist who decides who talks how much but instead have rules like fixed times for each person. I don't think people will break these rules but exclusion is always an option with very intransigent people.

In bigger contexts like the Commons, people deliberate on their own rules. Minor transgressions will have minor consequences and the worst is – again – exclusion. People are more willing to stick to the rules and watch others if they were part of the process that created the rules. If you want to dive deeper, I remember a podcast episode by SRSLY WRONG and a YouTube video by Andrewism about The Commons or The Tragedy of the Common.

[-] jdeath@lemm.ee 7 points 1 month ago

free (dis) association

[-] GladiusB@lemmy.world 1 points 1 month ago

Peer pressure, self awareness, probably a few others I can't think of.

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[-] mo_lave@reddthat.com 13 points 1 month ago

So is Lemmy (the platform) a case of anarchism at work?

[-] match@pawb.social 10 points 1 month ago
[-] lugal@sopuli.xyz 8 points 1 month ago

That's a very good question. It's as anarchist as modern social media gets.

The thing is the moderators. In an anarchist utopia, they would take turns, be recallable and have to justify their decisions.

The last point is true for some instances but not all (think of the vegan cat food debate on .world verses how .ml blocks voices critical of China and Russia).

The other two points – to my knowledge – barely happen. This isn't a huge problem, as I said, it's as anarchist as social media comes. But it contains the risk of a centralized power. Sure, you can always leave the instance (even easier than on mastodon where you lose your followers) but this resembles the Libertarian "freedom" to choose your oppressor. Internal equality is very important.

This isn't to criticize Lemmy. It's overall very good and as anarchist as realistically and practically possible. But to showcase the anarchist ideal of councils and to spotlight the minor flaws we should be aware of, even if there is no perfect solution.

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[-] GladiusB@lemmy.world 2 points 1 month ago

Most grass roots societies are like that. It's "self" ruling so to speak. At least from what I have gathered and read. It's been awhile since I did deep dive on it.

[-] LarmyOfLone@lemm.ee 1 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

No just free association. But having no alternatives to legitimate needs, like participating in our civilization's free speech discourse through the internet, free association doesn't help. So before the fediverse you were "forced" to associate with reddit/facebook/twitter or have little association at all.

I'm not sure how anarchism would work for a social media platform. Everyone is a mod? Everyone can post anything and can delete anything? 😀

I believe generally as a philosophy anarchism only makes sense as all authority should be challenged and needs to be justified or be abolished. The amount of authority justified and needed might be relative to the level of "enlightenment" of the participants.

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[-] MuAraeOracle@real.lemmy.fan 8 points 1 month ago

It's always good to learn something from comments under memes. You make me think about libertarianism that sounds like a different (right wing) take on anarchism.

[-] kameecoding@lemmy.world 10 points 1 month ago

Well you learned the wrong here, anarchy isnt the absence of authority it's the absence of hierarchy.

Some systems are clearly hierarchical, capitalism, dictatorship, feudalism.

Now I have a hard time imagining how you would enforce certain laws, or rules without authority.

[-] Excrubulent@slrpnk.net 2 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Authority is usually understood by anarchists as a component of hierarchy. I'd be interested to hear your definition that doesn't make it hierarchical.

And there are ways of enforcing rules that don't require authority, like diffuse sanctions, essentially community-based enforcement.

There's a whole school of anti-carceral justice thought that deals with this.

[-] lugal@sopuli.xyz 6 points 1 month ago

I'm not sure what makes you think of (right wing) libertarians. I specified the absence of authority. Libertarians are fond of the idea of voluntary contracts – or let's rather call it voluntary authority – which in effect is never voluntary. You can choose for whom to work but there is a ruling class you have to work for. All you can do is choose your oppressor.

Free association among equals on the other hand is a very common idea among (left/socialist) anarchists and I think very early on. You can choose and leave the community you belong to.

[-] TheReturnOfPEB@reddthat.com 2 points 1 month ago

coercive relationships are adjudicated the oppressors

[-] lugal@sopuli.xyz 3 points 1 month ago

That's why it's important to keep the rules non coercive

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[-] umbraroze@lemmy.world 51 points 1 month ago

Anarchists do believe in board game rules. Just that they think that using house rules everyone agrees on is a great idea.

[-] UraniumBlazer@lemm.ee 24 points 1 month ago

Just that they think that using house rules everyone agrees on is a great idea.

Kinda. The most important part is that if someone disagrees with the house rules, they can choose to disassociate from the house and go somewhere else. There's no state to say "this open field that's not utilized is mine, bitch!" and then taze you.

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[-] zarkanian@sh.itjust.works 2 points 1 month ago

Just that they think that using house rules everyone agrees on is a great idea.

I can think of one or two times where house rules were appropriate, and a couple of dozen times where they broke the game. I think that you should only apply a house rule where 1) the game is already broken and 2) you're reasonably sure that the house rule won't break it further. It's good for when an otherwise fun game is ruined by something that the game designers overlooked.

[-] LustyArgonianMana@lemmy.world 2 points 1 month ago

Well, if you were someone playing a game with them, then you can incorporate this. The point is that it's not obligatory and is based on the people participating

[-] LainTrain@lemmy.dbzer0.com 47 points 1 month ago

Look y'all we can have decentralised worker cooperative communes with everyone contributing and things distributed as needed for the betterment of everyone's living conditions rather than the enriching of the few, but only if I get to actually be Hitler in Secret Hitler next time we play!

[-] match@pawb.social 10 points 1 month ago

we had to stop playing Secret Hitler because nobody would play the fascists

[-] Yareckt@lemmynsfw.com 46 points 1 month ago

You got me. I'm taking rhis seriously :D Anarchy isn't against rules. Just against hierarchy's or unequal distribution of power. Which makes boardgames pretty anarchic since everyone can enforce the rules.

[-] match@pawb.social 32 points 1 month ago

playing board games is a form of self-governance and builds revolution

[-] jaybone@lemmy.world 4 points 1 month ago

Is it ironic if they play monopoly?

[-] explodicle@sh.itjust.works 10 points 1 month ago

The whole point of Monopoly is to piss you off about unearned income.

[-] xenoclast@lemmy.world 5 points 1 month ago

Developed by Quakers as a protest against capitalism. But like everything capitalism fucked that up too

[-] ummthatguy@lemmy.world 37 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)
[-] AeonFelis@lemmy.world 16 points 1 month ago

Anarchy is not against rules, it's against rulers.

[-] lowleveldata@programming.dev 15 points 1 month ago

I want to be a board game rule lawyer one day

[-] general_kitten@sopuli.xyz 7 points 1 month ago

Reminded me of This

[-] LarmyOfLone@lemm.ee 2 points 1 month ago

I actually believe one day we'll need lawyers and courts for complex virtual reality worlds.

[-] jonkenator@lemmy.world 14 points 1 month ago

Does anybody know what game that is? It looks cool.

[-] Anyolduser@lemmynsfw.com 14 points 1 month ago

Cones of Dunshire.

[-] CileTheSane@lemmy.ca 3 points 1 month ago

Looks like a 3D puzzle with some minis in front of it.

[-] DMBFFF@lemmy.world 9 points 1 month ago

Most board games are based on consensus.

[-] ZILtoid1991@lemmy.world 6 points 1 month ago

Tankies linking Engels' "On Authority" in 3...

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this post was submitted on 14 Sep 2024
911 points (98.3% liked)

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