So, I want to do some martial arts, for self defense. Ideally one that will be useful without giving me CTE, or any long term bad stuff, even though I feel this is already asking for too much thonk-cri

I don't live in the U𐓏𐓏 so gun related stuff isn't really an option.

I'm somewhat heavy, with a year of experience in lifting, and my cardio is not the best, but I can do long walks (of 1 or 2 hours) before getting tired.

I'm going to move to a bigger city in September, and there's a lot of stuff available, so you can comment on the more niche options.

So yeah, any advice from your experiences is welcome lol

If I had known people started arguing over my post I wouldn't have made it.

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[–] Lobster@lemmy.ml 17 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Hey, mod of !combat@lemmy.ml here. Happy to answer questions.

When choosing a martial art, you’re not choosing in an ideal world, you’re choosing in your city. You need to find a good gym you can travel to, with good coaches and a schedule that works for you.

I’m going to move to a bigger city in September, and there’s a lot of stuff available, so you can comment on the more niche options.

Step one: spend an hour searching what’s available there. Check their timetables to make sure you can fit it in, and then get back to us. Then you need to go to the gym and make sure you like the vibes there. A good student-teacher relationship is essential.

Decent answers here already. Like 389aaa saying"My number one piece of advice is that the best martial art is the one you will practice consistently" – and that largely has to do with liking the crew.

[–] durruticore@hexbear.net 4 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Pretty smart advice actually, tysm

[–] Lobster@lemmy.ml 3 points 3 months ago

You're welcome

[–] QinShiHuangsShlong@hexbear.net 16 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 children)

Judo and Brazilian Jiujitsu are very effective and dont involve any head hitting so no cte. They focus on how to react if someone grabs you which is good, because in any other case you should be running away as fast as possible.

[–] Le_Wokisme@hexbear.net 6 points 3 months ago (2 children)

the problem with only training no-strike arts is that in the real world somebody is going to hit you or try to hit you, and you need to be ready for that even if training in it isn't your main thing.

[–] Lobster@lemmy.ml 5 points 3 months ago

and you can only wrestle one person at a time, and a lot of street-violence is groups

[–] QinShiHuangsShlong@hexbear.net 4 points 3 months ago

My thought process was training specifically in being grabbed for maximum time value, since in every other scenario you should be running for your life or using a weapon and the training will boost your stamina for running anyway.

[–] 389aaa@hexbear.net 14 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

My number one piece of advice is that the best martial art is the one you will practice consistently, more or less. Some have better proven track records than others, but almost all of them will give you a firm advantage over the untrained as long as you practice diligently and efficiently.

Unfortunately a lot of martial arts gyms or dojos are chuddy as fuck, so you may have to bounce around a little to find both a style that you actually like, and a group of people who you can at least tolerate and more importantly trust with your body.

With that in mind, these days people seem to regard some combination of Judo+BJJ+Any striking art to be a good combo, as that would cover your bases in terms of unarmed combat - stand-up grappling, ground grappling, and striking. Wouldn't reach you how to deal with weapons, but weapon arts are quite niche and the rest is more important self defense wise.

If you don't wanna invest that much time, which is fair, out of the 3 my uneducated take would probably be Judo - less likely to be chuddy than BJJ and the ability to get people on the ground while remaining upright is theoretically the best thing you can do in a self defense scenario, as it gives you an opening to run.

In terms of injury, 90% of that is gym/dojo culture. If they don't take safety seriously, have a no pain no gain mindset, use too much force in sparring? You're gonna get hurt. The other 10% is how often you're getting struck on the head. Not doing a striking art, this can be mostly avoided by getting really good at falling properly.

[–] purpleworm@hexbear.net 10 points 3 months ago

I second that Judo and especially Jiu-Jitsu are probably what you want to do to minimize risk of long term injury and get useful training. It depends on where you're training, but in my experience you're less likely to get acute injury from Jiu-Jitsu (less likely to take a bad fall) and it has more groundwork, which is important for self-defense. Judo is still helpful though.

Most striking martial arts either give you a higher risk of acute injury than you're probably okay with, or are garbage for any purpose other than general fitness. That said, general fitness is still a good thing and you are much more likely to get through a self defense situation unless you have good cardio, so you should seek to improve it even if you can only pursue it via stationary bike at a gym or something.

[–] avoid_the_noid@hexbear.net 9 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (2 children)

Qin and 389 provided good suggestions. Both judo and bjj are excellent options. Practical and low risk of injury if you aren't planning on competing. There is still some risk, especially early on as your body learns to adapt to the movements and you learn how to breakfall and roll correctly. I tweaked my knee the first week trying to stay upright when my partner was pulling my body. I instinctively tried staying upright but you're supposed to go with the movement. Don't let that scare you though. If it's an option, try to find a bjj gym that incorporates judo, so that way you can learn takedowns and how to properly fall if someone catches you by surprise. Either option is a really solid defense strategy and lots of fun. I am partial to bjj because I do it and had a few misconceptions beforehand that were quickly shattered when a lot of my preconceived notions about what the martial art looked like and what type of people go to these classes was flipped after seeing it firsthand. Yes, there are a lot of chuds in these fields, especially bjj, but you just have to be selective when looking at gyms. I find most chuds gravitate towards Gracie Bara gyms (they also have weird rules other gyms don't) and 10th planet gyms (lots of Joe Rogan chuds and then you get to have the endless debate of gi vs no gi), but again, these probably vary from place to place. Just check out the prospective gym's website, do a free trial and check the vibe you get from the students and the teachers. I picked my gym based upon the fact that: they did both judo and bjj, everyone was smiling instead of trying to look tough, and they had a trans flag proudly displayed and no weird chud shit.

But basically, yeah, if there's judo available take that. If not, do bjj. If you find a bjj gym that does both, definitely do that. Hit me up if you have any questions.

Edit:

Some more advice to help you narrow down your decision.

If you do decide to do bjj, look out for these red flags: Avoid gyms that make you pay for belt promotions. Avoid gyms that force you to compete. Avoid gyms that don't have women in the classes. Avoid gyms with contracts.

[–] Lobster@lemmy.ml 7 points 3 months ago

try to find a bjj gym that incorporates judo

Judo in recent years has focused more on ground submission grappling (ne-waza), so with judo you'll do some submission grappling. Though still, BJJ guys are far better at ne-waza than judoka.

[–] durruticore@hexbear.net 2 points 3 months ago

they had a trans flag proudly displayed

I think that would be like finding a unicorn where I will live (somewhat close to where I alr live, there won't be much of a difference

[–] CrawlMarks@hexbear.net 7 points 3 months ago (1 children)

What ever has a cheap gym near you where people are nice.

Your milage may vary. Boxing is useually good but in lots of places people play too rough. MMA is cool but could be over priced or the gym could be full of right wing types. Kung fu is fun but it is entirely too dependent on local situations to guess. Around me kung fu places were elementary overpriced day cares with dubious predatory self help stuff attached.

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[–] Dimmer06@hexbear.net 5 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (4 children)

If self defense is really your main concern and guns aren't an option your next best bet is probably learning to use a collapsible baton or maybe a stun gun. Having a weapon is always going to be better than being unarmed no matter how good a fighter you are.

Edit: should probably also add that focusing on your cardio is gonna be the best thing you can do for your own safety no matter what because the best thing you can do in a self defense situation is GTFO, and if you do end up in a melee it will be very cardio intense.

[–] mickey@hexbear.net 9 points 3 months ago

Here's my two cents because I agree with your sentiment but would like to suggest different implementation.

With a collapsible baton you still have to be physically fighting someone. It is a pretty nasty weapon and you could catch charges for being too quick to use it. They are illegal in many jurisdictions. Sure you could hurt someone with it, but its not disabling and a determined attacker would persevere. So what purpose is actually served?

A stun gun again relies on up close contact and again being ready to mix it up in hand to hand, suffers varying degree of loss in efficacy through layers of clothes, and (this part I am uncertain on) does not disable through electric shock but again merely relies on pain.

Pepper spray requires no particular strength or skill to use, and will temporarily disable an attacker by forcing their eyes closed with tears and disrupting their breathing through coughing spitting drooling snot.

[–] XxFemboy_Stalin_420_69xX@hexbear.net 9 points 3 months ago (4 children)

i cannot stress enough what a useless and frustrating reply this is. no shit, obviously being armed is better than being unarmed. that's the whole point of weapons. however, as literally anyone with a brain can tell you, it's not feasible for everyone to have a weapon on them 100% of the time. no matter how careful you are there could be a moment when you don't have a weapon on you or it's been taken away from you, and it's very obvious to anybody but the most disingenuous, contrarian, annoying internet shitheads that that's what the OP is asking about

tldr if you don't have a relevant reply to the OPs question, just don't say anything

[–] CarbonConscious@hexbear.net 6 points 3 months ago

Ok I agree with your sentiment, but you didn't have to say it like that.

You're not even disagreeing with them! Relax!

[–] quarrk@hexbear.net 5 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

I don't think the reply was irrelevant. It’s good advice. Every time this thread comes up (which is more frequently over time) the same answer has to be given, that martial arts are not an effective use of your energy and time if you are worried about your safety. At worst it gives someone the illusion of safety and an unrealistic confidence.

Force multipliers are approx 1 million times more effective than years of hand-to-hand combat training.

If you are worried about getting jumped, then start carrying tools that will help you when you get jumped. Learn how to use them, but you don’t need to spend years.

Better yet, build community defense so that your safety isn’t individualized. Not possible in every situation but I want to emphasize that this is the better starting point of the conversation.

If you are worried about the rise of fascism, don’t worry, you won’t be facing hand-to-hand combat. Your enemy will have flashbangs and teargas at the absolute minimum, plus body armor. It is asymmetrical warfare.

The idea of martial arts as self-defense is something that should be criticized. Go ahead and do it as a hobby, but it’s unlikely to be anything more than that.

[–] Dimmer06@hexbear.net 3 points 3 months ago

OP did not state that they were only interested in unarmed martial arts and I understood their comment about firearms to imply they actually might be interested in weapons.

If OP is asking about fun sports or good exercise then my comment would be definitely be unhelpful but at least to me that doesn't seem to be what they're asking.

I'm not sure how that makes me a "disingenuous, contrarian, annoying internet shithead".

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[–] Le_Wokisme@hexbear.net 4 points 3 months ago

cardio and good shoes are more important than the difference between armed and unarmed 99.9999% of the time in personal self-defense scenario.

there are a thousand ways simply having a weapon around is more dangerous than not, and you have to be willing to use a weapon if you're going to carry it.

[–] Lobster@lemmy.ml 3 points 3 months ago

I don't recommend collapsible batons: https://yewtu.be/watch?v=uDBv-Vo7B5M

[–] Le_Wokisme@hexbear.net 5 points 3 months ago (1 children)

work that cardio up to running. a fistfight is like sprinting as hard as you can for a few minutes unless one of you has a glass jaw.

learn some grappling and some takedown defense. BJJ is fine but you're not going to the mat on concrete because you'd fuck your own knees and everything.

what's your threat model that you think brawling will help, as opposed to removing yourself from the situation?

[–] durruticore@hexbear.net 3 points 3 months ago (2 children)

I don't have a specific situation in mind but it's probably better to have that tool and not need it than need it and not have it.

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[–] Kefla@hexbear.net 4 points 3 months ago (2 children)

Any martial art that isn't founded on some magic nonsense is pretty much equally useful (and useless) since the main thing you're learning is general biomechanics and quick response to violence.

If you actually want to maximize your ability to defend yourself from random acts of violence, skip the martial arts and become an expert at quickly going from a resting position to accurately shooting something with your pistol. If you want to maximize your ability to defend your community or a structure from a more organized attack, get an AR-15 and become a skilled marksman.

But martial arts are fun (and ideally cheap) so definitely do it if it sounds like something you'd enjoy.

[–] puppygirlpets@hexbear.net 14 points 3 months ago (1 children)

If you actually want to maximize your ability to defend yourself from random acts of violence, skip the martial arts and become an expert at quickly going from a resting position to accurately shooting something with your pistol

this is the most american thing i've ever heard

[–] Kefla@hexbear.net 2 points 3 months ago (2 children)

If you're in a position that you have to punch someone or throw them to the ground or whatever, you're in a dire enough situation to shoot them. Since either of those things can kill someone, you shouldn't do them unless you're ok with the idea of killing someone. And if you're ok with the idea of killing someone, the most optimal tool for that job is a gun.

It's not "American" it's just reality.

[–] XxFemboy_Stalin_420_69xX@hexbear.net 11 points 3 months ago

the op specifically said guns aren't an option for them, you're just being annoying and unhelpful

[–] 389aaa@hexbear.net 9 points 3 months ago (1 children)

This is ignoring a wide spectrum of social violence where killing people is not the goal of either party and reacting in such a manner in such a situation would thusly get you socially ostracized and probably thrown in jail for manslaughter or equivalent, even in the gun-happy USA.

Besides, attempting to draw a firearm in a hand to hand combat situation is a stupid idea - it's going to be a struggle to actually get an accurate shooting position, and in the mess of desperate grappling that results all that practice shooting is going to be useless and you'll be just as likely to accidentally shoot yourself, a bystander, or someone trying to intervene as the target you intended. Nobody is quick drawing and smoking a guy after being punched, and if you draw FIRST you're rightly getting thrown in jail for murder.

For both social and practical in the moment reasons, this is bad advice - martial arts genuinely excel at this niche because it's socially acceptable to respond with it with attacked by unarmed hands, and it's literally just much more consistently effective at that range than firearms.

[–] Kefla@hexbear.net 2 points 3 months ago (4 children)

a wide spectrum of social violence where killing people is not the goal of either party

If you're putting your hands on me I'm going to assume you're trying to kill me (or worse) and respond accordingly. Keep your fucking hands to yourself if you don't want to get smoked.

[–] 389aaa@hexbear.net 12 points 3 months ago (3 children)

I'm not saying I endorse the practice, stop acting like the kind of people who do go around picking fights.

While you are correct that even a single punch carries a risk of death - that's why you don't pick fights - it remains a fact that humans have fought each other without death being the intended outcome for literally the entirety of human existence, and that currently in most places the vast majority of humans will never get into a fight where murder is intended.

Because of this, there is a certain etiquette around even self defensive violence that exists in all societies, and the majority almost universally regard pulling a weapon when attacked by an unarmed person to be a socially and legally unacceptable decision, regardless of the actual statistical reality of the risk of death in unarmed combat - unless there's some other mitigating factor like being jumped by a group or being a woman being attacked by a man, at least in theory.

While being thrown in jail for manslaughter is arguably better than being killed, it'd be better for neither to happen - and martial arts allow you to accomplish this.

I note also that you had no response to my assertion of the impractical nature of your advice - this is something police departments have put a lot of effort into analyzing and figuring out, as they're the only demographic of armed individuals who are somewhat regularly in combat with unarmed or melee-armed individuals. They have found that attempting to draw a firearm is useless even within distances as far as 21 feet - and most self defense situations turn violent when the people involved are FAR closer to that, often within or just out of arms reach.

[–] Kefla@hexbear.net 3 points 3 months ago (1 children)

unless there's some other mitigating factor like being jumped by a group or being a woman being attacked by a man

Maybe consider who you're talking to and what kind of perspective they may be coming from. If someone is putting their hands on me, there's probably a 98% chance they're bigger and heavier than me.

[–] 389aaa@hexbear.net 8 points 3 months ago (1 children)

As said in another comment, I am a trans woman, I am in precisely the same situation.

That doesn't mean what your were suggesting isn't bad advice to give to others - again, if someone put their hands on you then your firearm is going to be extremely difficult to use effectively. Martial arts are genuinely the more suited tool for the situation, strength/size can be overcome - at least momentarily - with technique even when the gap is large, and all you need is to create enough space to either run, draw your weapon, or both.

It's definitely a lot harder for women, but it still very much can be done and knowing how to do it only makes a firearm more effective by increasing the odds that you will actually be able to use it.

[–] Kefla@hexbear.net 4 points 3 months ago (2 children)

again, if someone put their hands on you then your firearm is going to be extremely difficult to use effectively.

Which is why you train to use your firearm quickly and from inconvenient positions.

Frankly, I just don't agree with the notion that guns are useless within 21 feet. That's cop pseudoscience.

[–] 389aaa@hexbear.net 13 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

Just because cops are saying it doesn't mean it's not true. There's actual studies on the matter and they've done testing. Drawing a firearm and shooting accurately enough times to consistently disable a human immediately - so at least two shots with handgun calibers - is extremely difficult and cannot be done consistently within that range or closer, and again most self defense starts within or just outside arms reach.

That's a large part of why they themselves teach police basic grappling. Most of them aren't any good at it, but they are still taught it for good reason.

Again, it's a matter of consistency - if you try to draw a firearm when someone has hands on you, they are GOING to attempt to stop or disarm you by grappling you, even if likely in a clumsy untrained way.

Obviously, it's much easier to resist grappling when you yourself know how to grapple. It's a skill, after all.

[–] Le_Wokisme@hexbear.net 8 points 3 months ago

21 feet might be ideal conditions but if their hands are on you already how the fuck are you getting a gun out and pointing it without surrendering the grapple?

do you have three arms?

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[–] Lobster@lemmy.ml 11 points 3 months ago (5 children)

This is a wrong view and you should self-crit.

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[–] ZeroHora@lemmy.ml 4 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Keep your fucking hands to yourself if you don't want to get smoked.

The second most American thing ever.

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[–] infuziSporg@hexbear.net 3 points 3 months ago (3 children)

I've been a victim of random street violence and while I sometimes think about what would have happened if I had punched my way out while it was still a 1v1 scenario, I can't imagine wanting to shoot my assailants.

A friend I worked with would constantly get agitated about how people at the job were about to start fights with him, and he often talked about his pistol being a deterrent. Neither of us is an intimidating presence physically. I only had 1 time when I was afraid of someone being violent to me, and I wouldn't have wanted to escalate beyond a small blade to defensively slash and then run away. Luckily it didn't come to that, because I'm likeable and persuasive enough.

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[–] Alaskaball@hexbear.net 8 points 3 months ago (7 children)

Literally the majority of situations that involves escalating levels of confrontations to the point of violence occur within six feet of participants, making the rapid attempt to draw any sort of concealed weapon extremely difficult. You are in a very literal sense asking to get your ass beat and possibly having your own weapon used against you in some situations as well. The quickest you'd get is with an inside-wasteband low cut holster which are fucking uncomfortable and force you to dress like a construction worker to actually conceal the outline of the thing on you and to actually make the whole thing work you gotta carry it loaded and have the firearm be hammerless to lower snag possibilities. All qualities that pose greater dangers to yourself and others around you in your daily life that you have to weigh against whatever slim possibility you may find yourself in a violent confrontation that necessitates engaging in manslaughter.

At that point it's better to learn how to deescalate and get distance from confrontations - and preferably breaking contact altogether - so as to have a better chance of at least drawing and presenting the existence of a weapon or firearm in a less explosive manner and persuading the other party that progressing any further is no longer worth it.

You're literally better off learning mad dog fist than what you're arguing for because you're no longer rhetorically looking to engage in self-defense, you're in practice seeking confrontation with the intent to murder to the second degree.

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[–] Arahnya@hexbear.net 3 points 3 months ago (1 children)

for online stuff with some freebies, check out Liberation Martial Arts : https://www.patreon.com/posts/liberation-arts-72505630

I like them because they are leftists, seem to reflect a lot of good advice others have touched on regarding woowoo (magic thinking,) chuds, etc. With a focus on health and protection, not necessarily combat but on survival.

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[–] LeeeroooyJeeenkiiins@hexbear.net 3 points 3 months ago (1 children)

As someone who does neither if you're worried about ICE I would learn aikido and Brazilian jiu jitsu so that you're extremely familiar with locks, throws and grappling, you will learn how to get out of their grasp while also breaking their limbs

I learned literally one aikido thing when i was a child from reading a book and based entirely on that one thing (a quick sidestep inward with a light push on the other person's chest (push forward and to your left) while you pull their right arm towards you, throwing their ass to the ground) it seems to offer really quick yet simple and effective techniques like that

Do boxing for exercise (best cardio you'l get) and some striking experience but don't plan on fistfighting ICE, plan on throwing their asses to the ground as hard as you can or breaking a limb or two so you can get away if they grab you

[–] LeeeroooyJeeenkiiins@hexbear.net 9 points 3 months ago

i just read your post saying you're not in the U.S. so idk why i framed my response from "if you wanna fight ICE" but im gonna leave it as is

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