Ask Lemmy

You can tell her she's a negative person who devalues other humans to make herself feel important.

You can simply tell her that when she speaks like that you personally think less of her.

prove to me that you have value

And then demand that she proves every turtle on the way down. Money is not an indication of value because it has no inherent worth, etc.

Demand that she proves that your value is attributable to her and is not inherent to you. Etc.

Your mom is a bitch.

Your mom is unfortunately mentally ill. Whether from upbringing or from organic damage to the brain... who knows. There's really not much you can do about it - parents especially are highly unlikely to listen to advice or anything from their children. Try to remove yourself from your mother as far as possible. Minimal communication, minimal contact.

"why aren't you a millionaire? Hard work brings wealth. Lazy people like you don't have much value I guess."

Assuming you want to burn that bridge.

I think "nuh uh" is a fair rebuttal, to be honest

Nothing, someone with that world view isn't worth talking to. I've argued with enough brick walls in my life to recognize one.

Say something as equally callous and ridiculous but angled to harm them like “I think we should euthanize old people,” and then when they get upset say “that’s what you sound like, so shut the fuck up.”

No rebuttal. Not worth fighting over. Probably can't change her, and who would it really help if you did? If the horrible things people believe are of no consequence to anyone else, just let them believe it. You can't save people from themselves.

tell her that at one time women who could no longer give birth or provide for the family were considered worthless. at this point in time what does she think her value would be in a society that believes women are to be used as breeding stock and slave labor?

regardless of what she says follow up with, why does she believe she has value when clearly she's past her prime and can no longer provide children or support the family?

fight fire with fire. if she wants to follow archaic social behaviors throw them back in her face.

I'm sorry you have to deal with that sort of toxicity in your family. There is no good rebuttal because it just seems like a lack of empathy, no one can make her care.

I'm sure that's rough for you. Wishing you happy holidays despite this callus friction. 💜❤️♥️😘

I'd tell them to shut the fuck up and not to speak that way about people in my presence.

My parents try to bait me into silly and shitty discussions like this, usually prompted by some conservative bullshit they saw on their preferred news program, and I just very simply say: "We can't discuss this because it is going to make me hate you." That's been enough to put an end to it for me.

Wow, your mom sucks. Get her out of your life.

"OK, Boomer. "

Give her a tour of the most godawful nursing home to show her future when she no longer has "value."

Seriously, I feel like the owners of those places would feed their clients to the woodchippers if they could get away with it.

Nazi.

One word is enough.

You cannot logically rebut a bad worldview. Plant seeds of doubt, protect yourself, and move on.

So the Nazi stance, basically.

Honestly, I'll take that over people who say depresses/disabled people have rights, but also don't want to actually provide any kind of means for them to exist. Both lack compassion but one is honest about it.

Your mom’s view toward mental health is backwards and unhelpful. Her way of thinking prevents people from getting the counseling, medicine, and / or guidance they need for their mind. Next time she has a physical injury, she should just suck it up and stop being lazy.

Value is a superficial, arbitrary concept. Their value view is different from other people's. Zoom out far enough, and you can argue that nothing has value. Look around, and you can attribute value to many things, countless times.

So, value to whom and in whose eyes? They can't find value to and for others.

Depression is not just an excuse for laziness.

It sounds like she doesn’t understand how the brain works differently and in a person with depression.

Unfortunately, she probably isn’t willing to learn. I know a lot of people with similar opinions feel like they know everything.

I’m sorry you have to go through that.

I hope your parents are divorced and you can stay with your dad. If not, find someone else to stay with. Your mom is about as healthy as HIV.

There isn't a ton to say, as she likely does not want or is willing to be convinced otherwise. If you know that her view is untrue (which, it is. There are, quite literally, millions upon millions of people who live fulfilling, good lives with depression. There are also people who provide "value" to the community through employment or otherwise who do not necessarily deserve to live.), then you do not have to value it. It's the same way you wouldn't value a Flat Earther's screeching about you being wrong about sphere Earth; they are beyond reason, and are not worth the energy needed to combat their views. It's tough, because it is your mother, but motherhood does not mean you are wise or well-lived. The barrier for entry to parenthood is extremely low.

Sounds a lot like "how you feel doesn't matter, your right to exist depends on being useful to me."

Which calls for acquiring leverage and using it to set boundaries, more than it calls for a rational rebuttal. Just gotta systematically remove the power such people have over you, and then they won't be able to talk to you that way anymore.

You’re mom’s an awful eugenics supporting cunt who isn’t worth speaking to and you would be better off cutting all contact than even looking at her.

What does value mean and how do we get value? It seems more like she's saying that she doesn't value some people, and that we should have the same values as her.

But she doesn't get to determine value, the whole community collectively assigns value. We've all hade times in our life where we were less and more productive to give up on someone during a low point isn't just laughably evil but also a bad investment.

It costs basically nothing to be nice to someone and that could turn around their depression (there's tons of anecdotal examples of this).

Are there any people or things that are valuable to your mother solely because they bring joy? Are friendships purely transactional, are you supposed to win friendships and extract more joy than the other party? Dunno just feels like she hasn't thought very deeply about this.

Sounds like your mom wanted a little slave to obey her and instead got a human child with an individual character that wants to be loved and live free. Well, people do that a lot. Try to get away from there. Focus on what you're good at, train your skills try to stand on your own feet and make a life and a living of your own. Then you can start living independently and get away from people with such cold hearted inhumane points of view.

(Only productive people's live are valuable, seriously? That is just social-darwinist garbage... In my country there used to be a asshole with a funny beard who propagated this point of view a lot and he ended up shooting himself in a berlin bunker in '45)

Every child deserves unconditional love from their parents. It is their decision to set a child in this world not the child's. The child owes nothing to their parents. They're human beings not little slave servant puppets. Be aware that you're no longer the helpless child. You're an adult now. Help yourself and be the kind of parent to yourself your mother never was able to be. And you'll find people who care and love you for who you are and not only for your productivity.

My rebuttal would be "people without empathy don't deserve to live either, but I'll spare you this time mother." Yeah, I don't see eye to eye with my mom much.

Can't ban chemtrails but you can reduce contrails which play a weirdly large part in warming up the planet irrespective of fuel consumed.

Just putting the word out for an underrated climate thingy.

My rebuttal: eat shit you fucking bigot

You cannot teach adults why they should care.

The people who are actually valuable would not say such a thing.

I'll speak to the humans have value part, but just briefly saying someone diagnosed with depression is just being lazy is bigoted against people with serious mental health diagnosis and is the same & just as gross as saying someone diagnosed with a physical condition like cancer is lazy.

You may be interested in learning about Alan Gewirth if you haven't had the chance yet.

https://iep.utm.edu/gewirth/

He argued for universal human rights based on our inherent agency. The argument is laid out better elsewhere, but a short version is something like this:

1. We humans have agency, that is desires & goals to accomplish. For a child it can be as basic as I'm hungry -> eat food, but this is something that gives us normative structure (you should do a thing). For example if I have the goal of graduating from school I should attend classes, I should do homework, etc.

2. Every goal you wish to accomplish can have different requirements, but two that are always present are the freedom to pursue your goals and the wellbeing to accomplish tasks necessary to achieve your goals. So you would need the right to freedom and wellbeing to pursue and achieve your goals.

3. Because your agency gives you the right to freedom and wellbeing to pursue and accomplish your goals, then everyone's agency grants them the same rights.

If you accept the 3 items above then violate other people's freedom and wellbeing then you would be objectively wrong and inconsistent in your beliefs, because you believe you have rights by agency but deny those same rights to others by the same reason (agency) they hold.

By the way your mom describes depression, it’s obvious she doesn’t understand what it actually is. She likely thinks depressed people simply sleep all day and feel sad. I would start by asking her to define the terms she’s using, have her define depression and value, then ask what she believes laziness means. The way she frames this suggests she’s repeating something she heard rather than expressing a considered worldview. It probably isn’t her own position; she’s just agreeing with it. Ask her what she actually believes, assuming she has a coherent position at all. Finally, close the discussion by asking whether she has actually read the Bible from front to back. That question usually ends the conversation.

Have you ever tried to coordinate 5 people to do something well? Do you know how hard that is? And you think thousands of well educated professionals, all over the world, are somehow working together to confabulate lies like "depression" just to justify laziness?

That would be my argument.

1. All humans have an inherent value.
2. Depression has numerous contributing environmental, social, and biological factors.
3. Who asked bitch? Shut your dumb ass up.

Who decides what's valuable? She probably isn't valuable under certain metrics. She thinks broken legs are being lazy?

It's projection. She knows that in her retirement she has stopped "providing value". I doubt she paid you for the ad-hoc legal and accounting work you did for her, so she is happy for you to provide value without compensation. I would simply tell her that if she doesn't want to have to find her own retirement home she needs to start paying for your services. This is the kind of person who thinks value is what you pay for, so long as she isn't paying you she isn't valuing what you do for her. The whole "you are a negative value" is exactly what she is to you, she is taxing your time, energy and emotions to make up for some perceived economic loss for raising a child she chose to have.