this post was submitted on 13 Nov 2024
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NGL, not asking for a friend. Given the current trends in US politics, it seems prudent to at least look into it.

Most of the online content on the topic seems to be by immigration attorneys hustling ultra rich people. I'm not ultra rich. I have a job in tech, could work remotely, also have enough assets to not desperately need money if the cost of living were low enough.

I am a native English speaker, fluent enough in Spanish to survive in a Spanish speaking country. I am old, male, cis, hetero, basically asexual at this point. I am outgoing, comfortable among strangers.

What's good and bad about where you live? Would it be OK for a outsider, newcomer?

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[–] LordWiggle@lemmy.world 24 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) (7 children)

You would do good here in The Netherlands. Lots of tech jobs, over here you actually have rights as an employee. No max amount of sick days for example, as no one plans a certain amount of days to be sick. The "FrEeDoM" Americans claim to have is so twisted and extremity far away from actual freedom. Here in NL I do feel I have true freedom. As in: not having to be scared when going out on the streets at night, no matter where I go. There are no guns. No crimes against humanity. Of course we do have issues, every country does. But they are tiny compared to most countries. Although we did vote for right wing parties sadly, we're not heading in the direction I want.

Oh and EVERYONE speaks English. From child to boomer. Officially it's not a foreign language anymore due to the high level English most speak. They are even discussing it should be a 3rd national language.

Edit: there's also a (very unfair to us natives) 30%!!! tax cut for expats to make NL more attractive. So you will make a lot of money yet pay less taxes while having loads of benifits as an employee.

Only issue right now is finding a house. Not enough houses so insane prices. A real housing crisis.

[–] thelsim@sh.itjust.works 6 points 4 days ago (1 children)

A small side note on that 30% ruling, it's only for highly skilled workers, so there are some requirements to meet.
Also, you'd best not boast about it to your Dutch coworkers if you want to make friends over here :)

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[–] Dearth@lemmy.world 4 points 4 days ago (1 children)

Do you think bike shops in there Nerherlands would be interested in hiring American bicycle mechanics?

[–] LordWiggle@lemmy.world 2 points 3 days ago

Yeah, for sure. Mechanics are getting scarce, everyone is pushed to get "HiGhEr EdUcAtIoN" so everyone knows how to use a keyboard but never used a hammer and a screwdriver. A lot of uddy of mine is a carpenter, the money he makes is insane because there just aren't that many skilled people put there anymore. Our bikes have a bit different design, people sit more up right as we use it as a form of transportation instead of for sports. But the mechanics work the same. Although electric bikes are taking over the market right now.

[–] futatorius@lemm.ee 3 points 3 days ago (1 children)

I have American friends who emigrated to the Netherlands and I go there a lot on business too. There are a few other things that are worth considering: Dutch people are generally friendly, but they also tend to take a strong line on assimilation. If you want to live there, learn Dutch and learn how Dutch culture works. Otherwise you won't fit in. As with any society, there are unwritten rules and norms of behavior that might seem strange at first. For example, the Dutch value frankness more than diplomacy. That can make them seem blunt, even to Americans.

Dutch is not far from English, both are on the same branch of the Germanic languages, but it's very idiomatic, so fluency can be hard to achieve. Also, the fact that everyone's so good at English reduces the pressure to learn Dutch. Language learning's quicker when it's the only way you can communicate.

And the previous poster's comment on the housing shortage is no exaggeration: it's a crisis. Expect difficulty and predatory middlemen when seeking housing.

Also, the weather can be intense: freezing North Sea winds and sideways rain.

[–] LordWiggle@lemmy.world 2 points 3 days ago

Whaaaaaat....?

We are very multicultural, if you don't want to adjust, that's fine. There are enough people around who are similar to you. Only if you want to fit in you need to adjust, but that's in any culture. Over here there's not that much pressure to do that. Unless you live in the countryside.

Dutch and English are not similar at all. They have completely different origins. Dutch has a germanic origin and English an anglosaxon heritage.

The weather is not intense at all. It's just humid, so 25C feels like 35C and 5C feels like -5C. But not as humid as a rainforest. Near the coast there's some wind, but in the cities and inland not too much. Winters have become mild, summers kinda hot but compared to other regions of the world our climate is very mild. Just expect a lot of rain, but compared to the UK even that aspect is really mild too. Just prepare for us to always complain about it. And about everything else too.

Yeah, Dutch people are generally pretty blunt. When you tell something we don't like will will tell you, politely, where a British person would say "ah that's interesting". For autistic people (like me) our directness is really nice. No beating around the bush.

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[–] hemko@lemmy.dbzer0.com 97 points 5 days ago (10 children)

First of all, stop using word "expat" when you're talking of immigrants but from "better countries"

[–] icogniito@lemmy.zip 40 points 5 days ago (2 children)

Hard agree, expat as a term only exists because white people wanted to separate themselves from those they deem ”lesser immigrants”

I moved to Japan from Sweden, I only call my self an immigrant because that’s what I am

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[–] CarbonIceDragon@pawb.social 41 points 5 days ago (7 children)

Ive usually seen "Expat" defined as someone working in another country, but explicitly with the intent to be there temporarily and leave once their time at that job ends, rather than moving there with an intent to stay and join that society. Which, granted, doesnt seem to be what OP is actually talking about in this case.

[–] Ajen@sh.itjust.works 19 points 5 days ago

It's short for "expatriate." I'm not saying it isn't used in the way you described, but that's not the original meaning.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/expatriate

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[–] skillissuer@discuss.tchncs.de 69 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (8 children)

Welcome to EU! Prepare for a cultural shift:

Considering that everyone on lemmy is 30+ communist tech worker, it's probably a welcome change

Speaking more specifically about Poland, depending on how you measure, we might have the most rapidly secularizing society in the world Some Americans (catholic fundamentalists) seem to think that you can just barge in, snatch a tradwife and plot of land and live like it's 50s, but these people are straight up delusional. Introducing ban on abortion, for example, erased full quarter of support for the party that did it (40% ish to 30% ish overnight) and caused largest protests since dissolution of Soviet Union. There are conservative women, but these tend to be 60+

In tech job market specifically, the bubble has ended (like everywhere else i guess), but if you're a senior or able to keep your current job you'll be fine (not sure how you'd get residence permit then). You'd need to lean Polish as a practical matter, because while lots of people do speak decent English, many don't (esp. 50+ and in small towns) and many official matters can be done in Polish only. Like everywhere else, there's division between more conservative rural areas and more liberal large cities; no one wants to live in the former, even locals, and so most of foreigners live in Warsaw (or Kraków, or Wrocław). It sounds like you'd blend in right away in one of these places. While property prices and rent went up since start of the plague, it's not as crushingly bad as in, say, Berlin or Rotterdam. Random benefits include ability to pirate absolutely everything without VPN with no consequences and ability to use complaint as a conversation starter

[–] Azal@pawb.social 14 points 5 days ago

I want to say on that cultural shift, having lived my entire life in the dark blue sections of the US... that would be such a freaking welcome change.

Also fucking shocked that Kansas ISN'T dark blue.

[–] magikmw@lemm.ee 11 points 5 days ago (3 children)

I never thought about it before, but I agree - you can start a conversion by complaining.

Living in Poland all my life, I also would like to mention it feels really safe here (as a white male, so...).

Unless you're into football, or low quality clubbing you'll be hard to find violent crime. Domestic violence and related murders do happen, but you'll be hard pressed to get yourself mugged or assaulted these days.

You can pay by card or via app (blik) nearly anywhere, small village shop, street produce vendor, food truck, anywhere. If they don't want your card they are probably doing some tax fraud, or are bad at finding low card payment fees.

TL;DR: I've travelled a bit, and I really don't think I'd rather live anywhere else.

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[–] thawed_caveman@lemmy.world 7 points 4 days ago (1 children)

I'm in France and my cousin married an American.

Cost of living is high and the language is bullshit, but the standards of living are some of the best in the world. Very old established democracy and rule of law, workers rights, social security, and whatever the complete opposite of political apathy is. Culture is rich with a disproportionate level of global relevance for the country's size. The location is ideal in the middle of europe, with a good variety of landscapes and climate.

Internet is cheap and fast, but i don't know anything about the state of tech jobs.

I don't know much about the tax system either but my assumption is you might save money just on the healthcare alone.

Overall i wouldn't recommend, you'd be better off in a country with a language closer to english, such as most countries north of France. They'll have better english proficiency and you'll learn the language easier.

[–] multicolorKnight@lemmy.world 4 points 4 days ago (1 children)

France always comes up on lists of good places to live, and there are Francophiles here as everywhere. I admire the place, but I chose Spanish instead of French when it was time to start studying another language, so that die was cast a long time ago.

[–] thawed_caveman@lemmy.world 3 points 4 days ago

Yeah i don't think it's worth learning french for almost any reason, lots more people speak spanish

[–] skygirl@lemmy.world 31 points 5 days ago (8 children)

I'm an American living and working in Europe for years now. It's pretty great, although language barriers can leave you feeling a little isolated sometimes. That said, the thought of going back to the US turns my stomach. European working culture is much more... Human. More understanding about things like sick days, better vacation packages and, better worker protections.

I wish the US could be better, but it no longer looks like that will happen in my lifetime so I'll do my best to find happiness here instead.

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[–] alehc@slrpnk.net 22 points 5 days ago (1 children)

Mexican here. Generally, most of the population won't be very welcoming. Talking specifically about mexico city. You see, the amount of money you make in tech in the US will allow you to stay at the very best places in the city, which pushes native people out of those districts and makes them angry in the process. However, those districts are already popular for tourists/rich immigrants and that's probably for a reason. I guess business there benefit from this wealth availability so they will treat you well. I'm not rich so idk. Also, it's probably not hard to emigrate here bureaucracy wise.

Speaking Spanish, you will likely do very well in mexico. Good food, good nightlife, good safety and infrastructure (assuming you stay in the good zones), etc.

Personally, having traveled to other countries (talking about US and places in Europe specifically), I love the diversity of nationalities you can find. I think different backgrounds and experiences is very important to drive innovation. I'd love to see more of that in my home country so I'm for more people emigrating to mexico. Feel free to ask questions if you are curious.

[–] multicolorKnight@lemmy.world 8 points 5 days ago (1 children)

Gentrification is a problem in the US too, probably most everywhere. Mexico City would be another great culture to be in, but I'm not really interested in living in some isolated communiy though. Is it possible for a foreigner to live a reasonable middle class existence there?

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[–] Treczoks@lemmy.world 48 points 5 days ago (15 children)

Depends how they behave. If they behave like "Expats", who don't care about integrating into our society, don't care about learning the local language even after years, they are not welcome.

If they integrate seamless (and this does not imply giving up their identity, just to make sure), and become a good member of this society, be welcome.

[–] HappycamperNZ@lemmy.world 30 points 5 days ago

Summed it up pretty well.

We love our country, and welcome you to join it. But join us - don't bring your country's problems here.

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[–] thelsim@sh.itjust.works 17 points 5 days ago (1 children)

The Netherlands is generally quite friendly towards (English speaking) immigrants and expats. Almost everyone speaks English and no one really bats an eye at a non-Dutch resident in most of the major western cities (Amsterdam, Rotterdam, the Hague, etc.)
Housing is terrible though, prices are high and it'll be hard to find something nice. One advantage for you (or any US resident), is that you're exempt from the inburgering exam. Which means that you won't have to learn the language and won't be tested on your integration in Dutch society.

My partner is from abroad and they've experienced living here as quite pleasant. They weren't exempt from the exam though (different non-EU nationality), which was a bit of a nuisance. But in general, reception was positive. They've been living here for over 16 years now.
But like most of Europe, we've got a far-right government right now, so there's a lot of anti-immigration talk going round. Of course it's only aimed at what they think are the "wrong" (Middle-Eastern and African) kind of people, so I doubt Americans would ever have to deal with it.

[–] AlligatorBlizzard@sh.itjust.works 7 points 5 days ago (1 children)

How trans friendly is the Netherlands? I like bikes and tall people are hot, lol.

[–] Obi@sopuli.xyz 11 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago)

It's generally LGBTQ friendly especially in Amsterdam but as the other comment said there's also a far right movement going on so it's not all roses and rainbows.

[–] rozodru@lemmy.world 16 points 5 days ago (1 children)

Canadian Here. prior to the election? we'd be welcoming. now? there seems to be a general sense of "we don't what that idiocy here" the right-wing cons of Canada would likely embrace Americans but the general consensus with my friends and family is that Americans are now considered morons (left and right leaning).

[–] Aaron@lemmy.nz 13 points 4 days ago (2 children)

But wouldn't you want the ones who would uproot their lives because Trump was elected? It's the ones who voted for him that you wouldn't want. If anything, Canada could use all the non-maga you can get.

[–] Sweetpeaches69@lemmy.world 9 points 4 days ago

You would think, but you also have to remember: Canadians are also stupid. They're us, just a decade behind.

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[–] mayhair@discuss.tchncs.de 10 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago)

I don't know why anyone (who doesn't have ancestry there) would want to move to Pakistan. Sure, it's not completely undeveloped (otherwise I wouldn't be sending this message lol), but it still has a VEEERRRRRYY long way to go compared to other industrialised countries.

  • Electricity has become more reliable over the years, but you still have to deal with increasing bills, so that the government can pay off its IMF loans
  • Piped gas still isn't 24/7, it's off from 10 pm to 6 am
  • Tap water still isn't drinkable
  • Karachi, Lahore, and Islamabad disproportionately receive the lion's share of development while smaller cities are neglected
  • Even Karachi can be said to not be as developed as Lahore or Islamabad. When I visited it, I found that it was greatly overpopulated and many apartment buildings were extremely worn-down. Chipping paint for instance. My father says that since Lahore and Islamabad are a comfortable driving distance away from each other, the population is more evenly distributed between the two cities. Hyderabad's near Karachi, but remember, it's not a big three city ...
  • Even the development in Lahore and Islamabad is not optimal. Mostly relying on private housing projects, not making an effort to make them integrate with the rest of the city
  • Suboptimal public transport. In Lahore there is a public bus and metro system, but both don't cover too much of the city. For intercity buses, people rely on private companies such as Daewoo Express. And again, the reliance on private housing projects hinders true city-wide planning
  • Professionals (doctors, engineers, lawyers, etc.) receive very low salaries compared to what they could earn abroad. The devaluation of the rupee is related to it, but only partially. That's why millions of us have moved abroad to literally every other country, and thus why remittances are a big portion of this country's income
  • Lahore is literally the smoggiest city in the world right now. Did I mention it's one of the three most developed?
  • Too much non-air pollution as well. There is a culture of littering, partially because people aren't punished for it and thus have adopted a care-free attitude, and partially because there aren't enough outdoor wastebins

I haven't even gotten into the sociopolitical aspects ... I'd be writing a whole book at that point

[–] Delphia@lemmy.world 23 points 5 days ago (8 children)

Why would I want people from a less privileged country coming here and stealing our jobs, putting a burden on our healthcare system and making housing even more expensive?

Congratulations America, you're now the english language Mexico... with worse Tacos.

[–] agent_nycto@lemmy.world 22 points 5 days ago

Hey not cool don't diss Mexico like that

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[–] RandomVideos@programming.dev 15 points 5 days ago (2 children)

Im from Romania and if i saw someone move here from a richer country, i would be confused

People in Romania are homophobic, racist, xenophobic. A significant percentage of romanians decided to work in another country in the EU, giving money to their family who are living in the country(or just leaving with everyone to another country)

At least over 50% of people pirate software here, including people working for the gouverment, so you dont have to use a VPN

Its also technically illegal to be homophobic, but no one has ever been punished for that

[–] Geth@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 4 days ago

I feel like romanians are casually all of the negative things you mentioned but at the same time they are very inclussive when someone tries their best to integrate. Also Romanians are mean to Romanians most of the time, but also would probably be super friendly to an American.

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[–] indomara@lemmy.world 21 points 5 days ago

I am originally from the US but moved to AU and am now a citizen. I got lucky and got out just before Trump's first presidency.

Life here is good. Like, better than most Americans can really understand. Healthcare is free, education is good and includes topics like critical thinking and understanding how to spot "fake news".

There is only a small aisle of frozen food in the grocery store, not nearly as much pre-packaged food. There are affordable fresh fruits and vegetables, and outside most grocery stores is an independent baker, butcher, fishmonger, and fruit and veg stand.

Minimum wage is $24.10 an hour, and you cannot be fired for no reason if you are a full time employee.

If you compare things (and adjust for AUD to USD) like rent, gas, milk, bread, eggs... Things cost about the same here as in the US.

We pay around the same amount in taxes, and get so much more.

Things aren't completely rosy, distressingly, Australia seems to want to emulate the US in certain ways which worries me.

There is also currently a bit of an economic downturn and while it's nothing like what I left behind, it does mean things cost more and luxuries have to be budgeted for.

I think anyone who isn't a dick would be welcome here. There are racist cunts here like everywhere, but generally Aussies are the kindest and most welcoming people.

[–] Etterra@lemmy.world 7 points 4 days ago

Too bad some of the people who need the protection the most (disabled Americans) are unwelcome. Sucks to be us I guess.

[–] EnderMB@lemmy.world 3 points 3 days ago (1 children)

I'm in the UK, and I work with a LOT of Americans already, so know this first hand:

  • You fuckers are always in for a culture shock when you realise that everywhere isn't like London. You seem to either expect London or Harry Potter Land, but when you end up somewhere like Bristol, Leeds, or Birmingham the frame of reference just dies and you see the wheels turning in your head trying to make sense of it all.
  • Weirdly, you seem to really like our supermarkets. They're a lot smaller than yours, meal deals are a novelty that never gets old, and paying the price on the tag is the greatest thing ever.
  • You love our bread, and our chocolate is like crack to you. You'd think that you'd moved to France or something...
  • Butter on bread will fuck you up. You use Mayo all the time, but we use butter/spread, and it messes with your minds.
  • You quickly learn that Europe is a continent, and that cultures across the continent are very different to one another. You also learn that no one knows US history that well, or that we had a war with you (since we have basically had a war with everyone at some point).
  • The drinking culture is a really interesting one. Some love it, some hate it. It's a staple of British life
  • We get paid a lot less than you do, but your money will go much further because you're not spending it on healthcare. You'll also get taxed a lot, but ultimately you'll earn enough to be comfortable, and a comfortable life in the UK is nice.

To answer your question, you're more than welcome here, and it's much easier to get a visa to the UK for you than for us to go to the US. Expect some people to give you shit for Trump, but give them shit back for Brexit and electing the Tories for 15 years.

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[–] lvxferre@mander.xyz 15 points 5 days ago (1 children)

Brazil is a Bad Idea®.

  • There's a reasonable chance that a Trump-like clown wins in 2026. Probably a Bolsonaro ally, or even a relative (there have been talks about his wife running for presidency).
  • Repeat with me the Latin American mantra: Nothing Fucking Works®.
  • Ask Haitians and Venezuelans how they're treated.
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[–] hendrik@palaver.p3x.de 20 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (5 children)

If you're a nurse or some other skilled professional in some specific fields... We have kind of a labor shortage with some jobs here in Germany. I live in the city, should be okay for outsiders. I guess.

I'd recommend to visit a place before considering to move. See how the people act. And you'd need to learn the language to be able to take part in regular every day life. (Edit: And for most jobs.)

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[–] superkret@feddit.org 15 points 5 days ago

Heidelberg, Germany. This town is already more American than some towns in America.

[–] sunzu2@thebrainbin.org 15 points 5 days ago

Weird way to talk about immigrants

[–] Skua@kbin.earth 17 points 5 days ago (5 children)

Here in Scotland / the UK you'd be absolutely fine so long as you're a decent person. There's not even a language barrier beyond dialect, and dialects vary hugely within the UK and each part of the UK anyway. Just please don't insist that your great-great-grandmother is actually from Clan MacWhatever.

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[–] Allero@lemmy.today 12 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago)

Given that my country is Russia and you are probably trying to escape an authoritarian regime, you may consider another destination.

But still, I think Americans are generally welcome. People can make lighthearted jokes about it and be surprised, but you'll be a welcome guest after all. Bonus points if you say American government, and particularly Department of State, is shit :D

Language barrier might be an issue - most Russians above ~35 have very poor English skills, and younger folks mostly have it on A2-B2 level.

Oh, and the country is sanctioned to hell, so sending money in and out is an additional hurdle. But if you retain your American credit card, you'll be alright and at least able to make payments outside the country.

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