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feeling awful continues (0 replies)
I'm sad because I don't think I'll have a coming out anniversary, or anniversaries of those things. And I feel like all these firsts are just gonna happen and nobody knows me. I don't know how much any of it matters if there isn't anyone to share it with. I'm alone no matter what. I can go to every fucking meet-up but that doesn't mean I know what the fuck to say.To me, the conversation is the messy stuff, the not feeling like a guy, the how to appear more feminine so people don't subconsciously treat you as male before you even notice them, the how do you walk and what do you wear and how do you shop and what do you do in your free time. To me the conversation isn't just one reply or one sentence one time, it's reciprocal and back and forth, we message , we talk.
And like, I don't want the small talk, the one-offs, etc, until the Deep Down is addressed. To me a sign that someone cares and is invested is that they want to talk about the messy stuff, they aren't scared. There's care, like, the act of helping, and I could use that.
I'm just floored at how different my mindset is from everyone else's. It's hard not to start to see this as an indictment on my own social skills. You're probably all normal and I'm the weirdo. Maybe I should start a blog or something where I can just not have comments, so that I'm not disappointed when nobody says anything.
If people are sick of me, please just tell me to leave
Anniversaries can matter even if they're just for yourself and by yourself. I should know.
spoiler
How is somebody supposed to care if there is no connection made yet?
Close friendships never appear out of thin air, they're cultivated over time. How would someone even be able to offer you a real ear to listen to your problems if they don't know you yet? I don't even mean in the sense of why would they, I mean in the sense of how could they genuinely understand you if they don't know anything about you yet? Would you be able to understand someone who you met that very same day? The way people build to that understanding is through the small talk and the one-offs and the small conversations about hobbies and shared interests or experiences.
To use Aristotelian language here, a friendship of good is cultivated first through a friendship of convenience or a friendship of pleasure; "they also need time, to grow accustomed to each other; for, as the proverb says, they cannot know each other before they have shared their salt as often as it says, and they cannot accept each other or be friends until each appears lovable to the other and gains the other's confidence. [...] For though the wish for friendship comes quickly, friendship does not"
By insisting so much on addressing your Deep Down first and foremost you're closing yourself off from anyone who might actually make a connection with you, who might actually be able to help you with the Deep Down.
I said this in my other reply, maybe I'm wrong about small talk, but that doesn't change that it feels, like passively manipulative. Like, "then I'll mention hiking and the 36 year old park ranger with a nose ring will have no choice but to converse with me about a mutual topic! mwahahaha" I feel like I'm plotting to finally catch the Batman, idk
Rejection rewires you a bit. If I didn't have a strong history of going up to people and having it be awkward, them being intimidated, me not knowing what to say, I'd probably be more comfortable with small talk. Have you ever had someone fail at answering the question "what are you watching?" Not like, "he didn't really answer the question", like "I think this large child is drowning on solid land!" Because that's how conversations tend to go.
Frankly I spent a long time prioritizing being convenient to others and always being there for them, what I eventually realized was that that doesn't work either. I'm great if people want something, but I don't really need to ask for stuff, again, do I be potentially manipulative and ask for help when I don't need it?
I am only responding to how I have seen people interact and how others have interacted with me. People have dumped their issues on me before and even though I wasn't in a place to hear it, I was there for them in the moment. I didn't make it about me, or about the topic being too weighty. I have the feeling I'm somehow off the mark but idk
Small talk is not manipulation, the other person is not forced to reply. You are not the only person with agency in that interaction. The other person is under no real obligation to reply. It is a way to fill a void of silence, something which a lot of people feel is itself awkward (Apparently, I myself like silence though).
Further, talking about mutual interests is frankly past the small talk stage. If someone is replying to you about a mutual interest, chances are they actually like talking about that mutual interest. They aren't doing it because it's a social obligation, they do it because they want to. And if two people talk about mutual interests enough, they start to understand and know each other and become friends.
Yes, I have seen someone fail at conversation like that, she was myself in fact. There were many years where I actively spurned any attempts to make connections or failed to make any myself. I have several friends who've done the same too. But speaking for myself, I forced myself to make connections with others even though I still find it incredibly hard and painful even today. Anytime I give anyone a glimpse of my actual inner self I am beset by worries that they'd throw me away; I often have been, right down to my own gods damned parents. But I also keep trying because otherwise I'd wallow and drown in that same pain.
Fawning is a shitty method, yes, but the reason fawning is bad is because it's a neglect of your own needs in order to try to make the other person like you. But small talk and discussing interests are mutual, if it's a shared interest both of you should be able to enjoy talking about it, and meeting and trying to learn about other people is, for a lot of people, nice in and of itself. You should ask for stuff because that's how you make the relationship mutual and not simply one-side taking and the other giving. Quite frankly, the people who hurt you like that were probably shitty people. They were used to the friendship being primarily about them taking and you giving, so at the first moment where they had to give in return they were uncomfortable. And they are pieces of shit for doing so. But having said that, that's also the danger of fawning, since it produces that sort of one-sided give/take dynamic more often than not. Which is why I'm so insistent on trying to make mutual connections, because while it's not your fault that you were hurt, trying to build more mutual relationships will gradually and marginally make it less likely to repeat.
I know that this is a hard thing to do and that it feels impossible. But no one is ever going to be able to fix you if you do not at least try to fix yourself. I'm not saying that you need to do everything on your own because that's bullshit and unhealthy in its own ways, but you have to do something. It's not some fucking switch that you just turn on or off to make your brain work, it's a long and difficult process to gradually improve yourself in small ways one at a time, just like anything else. Start with something tiny like trying to reply to someone on the mega who has an interest you share, or make a general post on the mega asking about something transition related, like maybe how to pick out a cute skirt. I reply to those sorts of fashion questions all the time because I enjoy doing it.
But sure, maybe these are too hard for you to start with still, given everything I wouldn't be shocked if they were, but you need to set yourself towards at least trying to find a solution instead of just waiting for some perfect person to show up and save you. Yes, you will almost certainly fail some or even many times, but if you don't set yourself up to learn from your failings you're just going to repeat them or drown in your gods damned sorrows.
Frankly, you've been doing this for months at this point with practically no change in either your behaviour or statements despite people continually talking to you and trying to get to you where you are. Again I don't expect instant changes overnight, but you have had a long period to reflect on what people have told you and yet if anything you've become more insular, internalising the advice and attempts to help as proof that you are fundamentally broken instead of as proof that you can change even if it is a slow and hard process. Have you even considered that Terminal has been doing the exact thing you are constantly asking for, trying to understand your point of view and genuinely help, for months and months and months? And yet I don't think I've seen you even once try to talk to her outside of these despite the fact that she has done exactly what you asked for several times. I can't speak for her, obviously, we never even interact outside of the occasional post on the megathread, but I've still read the things she's been saying to you, the things you've been saying, and consistently she has been nothing but kind and trying to understand and help. Going straight to your Deep Down like you want. And she's never once lost her temper at you; she's not an asshole like I am, as evidenced by this very post. Sure, it hasn't built a friendship, but that's because of what I was trying to insist, healthy, good friendships cannot be built upon a foundation of only pain. But nonetheless, no one would be doing this for you if they did not at the very least want to help you hurt less. I hope you'll be able to see that someday.
Fine. I will change.
I am sorry for misreading things and messing up everyone's vibe. I have wasted your time and the efforts of the community. I won't say more for fear of being accused of self-flagellation, even though I did this to myself.
I am deeply sorry.
You have nothing to apologise to me for. I can't speak for anyone else, but I suspect they'd say the same.
Whether you misread things or not, it doesn't change the fact that you were hurting and reading them in the way you could. It is not a moral failing on your part. It is okay to feel.
Like I said, relationships are mutual, you are not to blame for your difficulties making connections, you have not ruined the vibes of the community. You haven't wasted anyone's time; they gave it willingly, including my own. You did not do this to yourself. This space is first and foremost for support and you are frankly hurting a lot and need that support. It is okay to feel hurt, it is okay to feel like you need support, and it is okay to take up space in the community when you need it. My point is simply that the support of others is not enough on its own to heal you if you won't try to heal yourself a little too.
I'm sure you won't feel any better from this, however, so to make it clearer I will say that I forgive you, even though I do not think you did anything worthy of blame.
I am an asshole, and frankly that last post was certainly more harsh than it needed to be. I'm sure you're probably spiralling right now and for that I apologise myself. You didn't deserve to be hurt further while already hurting.
I hope this will be productive for you in the long run though, even if just a little.
Maybe youre the normal one though! Its sad to see you feeling down. I know you've struggled a lot. You do deserve what youre looking for...
spoiler
You can have a coming out anniversary or egg cracking anniversary. I dont celebrate my birthday or the day I cracked my egg, but I do celebrate the day I socially transitioned! And if you dont know the exact day, pick something! Theres no rules around this stuff. You can pick Bastille Day as your own personal egg cracking day and celebrate it. I guess you mean you want to celebrate it with other people, not the actual literal date of a calendar - could "celebrate" TDOR with a bunch of people (its a hard day to celebrate, but like be in a gathering).If you wanna skip small talk and go to deep mess talk - the people who will do that are hard to find. Think of small talk like grease or a tax, something that enables the thing you desire - deep introspection shared with someone else. You might not like grease but it makes the wheels turn without breaking down (like those analogy is breaking down lol). Small talk, showing up at the same place with people, thats how you make friends and thats how you'll find people to have those really deep conversations. Caring about someone isnt typically a struck by lightning phenomenon, you typically grow into caring about someone like a seedling to a flower. What youre describing (tell me if Im wrong) sounds more like youre hoping you buy a packet of seeds and it blooms after a couple seconds of water. Takes time, every group needs to figure each other out - are these people safe? Can I trust them with my concerns? Will they make fun of me if I share my trauma? Can I ask them for advice without judgement? Youre asking to jump straight to after norms are developed in a group. Its very brave of you to be so willing to share with people you dont know! Very few others are that brave.
You don't get social investment without investing - there's no deep care until you have some shallow care. You've mentioned on your other account and here your longing for deep friendship and a desire to skip past the awkward small talk acquantince phase - that can happen but its more like kismet or chance than something anyone can give you advice about or help you make happen (beyond just continuing to show up, be open, brave as you normally are, etc). Youre not the first person who Ive heard wants to avoid and skip all small talk and only talk about the deep stuff - presumably if yall could find each other somehow yall would be quite happy. But as it is youre like coconuts in the ocean, just gotta hope to bump into each other. So I will I stead suggest you learn to make peace with small talk and showing up regularly with the same groups and talking to those people and engaging with them (like remembering the stuff they say about their own hopes or likes or birthdays etc).
Maybe you're right. I can't shake the feeling that I'm being manipulative with small talk, that I'm a charlatan trying to entice passersby on the street for just long enough. I have to put on my Human costume and perform Human for the normal healthy humans.
I've been in a few friend groups and I guess to me things felt established? To me we set our pace and went. There probably was small talk but I didn't perceive a "figuring out" phase with the guys i hung out with in undergrad, beyond just orientation stuff. I didn't get the sense that everyone knew all my hobbies, and five cis guys in 2014 did not really open up about their emotional landscapes, if you can believe that. I'm not trying to be brave, people here just didn't respond how I thought. If anything there's maybe a false dichotomy about making people feel comfortable sharing these things, and then saying "what a different thing you're doing from everything everyone else is doing!" but I could be wrong. I just don't think creating a false expectation of meaningful dialogue is helpful.
what's confusing is that i did used to really ask others questions and check in on them and be very reassuring about caring about them, and those people didn't reciprocate. How was I supposed to know not to blame myself? Idk how to undo those years of feeling awful and invisible. Is there a Third Way for talking to normals?
I've gotten feedback both being too vague and being too detailed, being too involved and being too aloof, expressing too many feelings and not expressing enough feelings. Chat, is this Gender Centrism?
Feeling bad or like you did something wrong when someone didnt reciprocate isnt a matter of not knowing the neurotypical social handbook, although it might be contributing - its more, if I were to guess, a product of low self esteem and social anxiety.
Its not manipulation to figure out what people like and to share your interests, and part of the social grease to that is the annoying small talk like "how's the weather, what do you do, what's your major, do you have siblings, etc etc." Its just one of those rules, you can find people who will break them and jump to deep interesting things but theyre just very very very rare (usually a blunt circle is involved lol). Often you've talked about being so locked up and terrified/socially anxious you have a hard time of even breaking in to small talk or any kind of talk. If you want, you can think about it like practice to getting to the deep things you've mentioned wanting to share and talk with others. Just keep going and keep talking and keep chatting with people at your groups, you will make a friend. I guess you also have to deal with this internal view of yourself you've mentioned quite often of seeming scary/creepy or unworthy in some way of being talked to - youre not unworthy.
You'll find irl friends who will check in on you, its a marathon not a sprint.