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It's international women's day or, as we call it in my neck of the woods, feminist struggle day. So in light of a recent discussion that was apparently very unpleasant for everybody involved, i will take the effort and vindicate something that a lot of you apparently have yet to understand correctly: TMA / TME discourse. In the following, i will adress the most common questions about, misconceptions of and attacks on these ideas.

What does TMA / TME mean?

It's a set of two terms that allow an intersectional analysis of the particularly precarious place trans women and transfeminine nonbinary people have in patriarchal gender relations.

TMA stands for transmisogny affected. It describes anybody who is marginalized on the grounds of being both trans and a woman or a femme-aligned nonbinary person. This is a particularly potent intersection of different forms of oppression because a lot of transphobic discourse has focussed on demonizing, ridiculing, stereotyping and otherwise targeting trans women. Furthermore, transphobia has strong roots in misogyny and trans women are particularly threatening to the patriarchal order, as the very existence of people who abandon their male privilege to live as women full time threatens the assumptions of make supremacy underlying that system. Therefore it is hardly surprising that transmisogyny is generally the most violent and virulent form of transphobia. If you do not believe me, go ahead and check the data for the trans murder monitoring and see how many transfems are killed compared to other trans identities. Check how many Hollywood movies have drummed it into people's heads that vomitting is the correct reaction to our presence. Take a look at who gets targeted by sports bans. Take a look who gets cited as a security concern for cis women when trans people are barred from public life.

By contrast, TME stands for transmisogyny exempt and refers to literally anybody who doesn't have to put up with being stripped off their rights like this.

Isn't this just recreating the gender binary?

No. This is a common accusation, but very obviously untrue. TME isn't synonymous with "trans men and transmasculine nonbinary people" and it is not supposed to be used that way unless we are focussing exclusively on dynamics within trans communities that roughly 99% of TME people just can't be part of.

You see, the label in itself mostly includes people who are not affected by any form of transphobia, namely cis women and cis men. It's hardly a recreation of the gender binary when it includes all binary genders besides trans women.

So you're saying trans men aren't opressed?

No, far from it. Trans men and other TME trans people still suffer from transphobia, and that is a pretty serious form of discrimination. Any of them who has an at least theoretically working uterus also faces additional strain about their reproductive rights and bodily autonomy, especially if their plan is to just get rid of that thing. On top of all that, transmasc nonbinary people are also affected by exorsexism (the mistaken belief that there are only two genders) and when TME people share another axis of intersectional opression like racialization, disability, class etc. that can obviously affect them severely as well (and if you do look at trans men that become victims of hate crimes, intersection especially with racialization is extremely common, as we also see among murdered trans women who are BIPOC in about 70% of all cases). Not being affected by transmisogyny doesn't change any of that. Intersectionality matters. That's the entire point of this discourse, that you cannot look at one axis of opression in a vacuum.

Being exempt from transmisogyny does, however, mean that TME people are spared from a very powerful intersection of different oppressive mechanisms, as none of their vulnerabilities are potentiated by transmisogyny. And it means that within trans communities, trans men generally have a privileged status over trans women. Patriarchal methods of silencing and controlling women have been internalized by anybody living in our culture and they can and do show up in trans spaces, both on- and offline. Even outside of these communities, trans men enjoy - albeit conditional - male privilege in any situation where they pass, just as i, for example, enjoy conditional privileges of white womanhood as long as i am perceived as a cis woman. Yes, that privilege is always precarious, as our genders are always under attack in this world, but it is nevertheless there.

In fact, a lot of the problems that are described by the TMA / TME discourse directly mirror the struggles of black women, who are also routinely opressed by men both without and within their own communities, men that are themselves extremely and brutally marginalized outside of black communities. Terms like misogynoir have been coined for a reason, and it is telling that anti-TMA discourse so frequently denies that misogynoir is even a thing.

*But my transmasc friend gets called the t slur every time he wears a dress!

Yes, gendernonconforming men are discriminated against in our society. They may even be mistaken for trans women at times. The difference between a GNC trans man and me is that the GNC trans man can post about getting told that he will never be a woman on r/accidentalallies or any of the other spaces for the entire genre of "lol that dumb biggot was transmisogynist to me even though i am not even a woman" whereas i get another microtrauma from that kind of interaction.

Isn't this just opression olympics?

I am not trying to opressionmaxx, i am pointing out mechanisms that affect me even in supposed safer spaces. Of which i do not have many. When there are mechanics at play that allow trans men to whip up a targeted harassment campaign when they deem that me standing up for my friends is "hysterical" or "unhinged" or is making them uncomfortable in other ways, regardless of the fact that the exact same behavior from me was viewed as "determined" and "fiercely loyal" and even "diplomatic and fair", i have a problem. I have lost access to orgs and spaces because of this shit. I have trauma from these encounters. And i am not alone in this.

You are splitting queer communities!"

No, i am trying to make the tiny number of spaces i can inhabit in the first place not hostile for me. That's hard to do when you constantly have to watch out that you do not hurt a man's fragile ego by speaking up.

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[–] BatsAreRats@hexbear.net 20 points 1 day ago (1 children)

THANK YOU! This website has some interesting discussions about politics but the serious lack of trans feminism has always bothered me

[–] Le_Wokisme@hexbear.net 5 points 1 day ago (1 children)

because the trans mega seems 99% transfem i did not expect this sentiment

[–] BatsAreRats@hexbear.net 5 points 21 hours ago* (last edited 21 hours ago)

unfortunately there's a difference between being transfem and being a trans feminist, everybody including TMA individuals must unpack their own transmisogyny/transmisogynoir

[–] Binette@lemmy.ml 23 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Honestly, well put. I'm tired of seeing discourse that is just misunderstandings of these claims when trans people are getting their rights taken away. Transfems are affected by transmisogyny and transphobia. It's not opression olympics to point that out, and saying that it is is bigoted at worse.

Yeah, i get that it can be a tough pill to swallow for a lot of guys that they are part of patriarchal systems of violence, i've seen a lot of dudes especially in leftists spaces or trans communities react to this with "but i'm just a smol bean uwu", but it's something you gotta reckon with. Just as white people have to confront their own complicity in white supremacy or citizens of the imperial core need to understand that even when they are destitute, they still exist in a society that upholds its wealth by murdering its way through the global south.

That's not an easy task, but it is necessary. I can absolutely second OP's sentiment about this affecting supposed safer spaces negatively, i have seen it in irl orgs, i have even seen it on discords that were 70% TMA users. This isn't just some isolated tumblr phenomenon, transfems on tumblr just get hit with it particularly hard. But this doesn't stay online, just as the dynamics that enable it aren't an exclusively online thing, either.

[–] Thordros@hexbear.net 18 points 1 day ago

I'm hella tired and can't give much of a substantive response other than to say: I get it. I feel you. We've given a few trans kids a safe place to stay over the last several years, and that weirdo, bizarre, flipped on on its head misogyny has been a consistent common thread. Largely boiled down to:

  1. "She" (transmasc) is just going through a tomboy phase, haha, weird!
  2. "He" (transfemme) is such a Β«there are so many slurs I've heard that would get caught in the Lemmy word filter I'm not even gonna try to unpack all that.Β»

It's fucked. I hate it

[–] manuallybreathing@lemmy.ml 18 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I haven't popped out of the newsmega in a while, I'm glad to see you're still posting, and you're still around

this is a good write up, thanks, I really hope the targeted harrassment you're referencing didn't take place on hexbear. I've had a pretty similar thing happen within 'a community' (so-called), I did't really notice it was happening until I drew a diagram to explain it and my comrade said 'uh, why is everyone on this side trans?'

Anyway ~

I'm from transgender island, and I say kill 'em all, happy international working womens day

[–] AcidSmiley@hexbear.net 23 points 1 day ago

I really hope the targeted harrassment you're referencing didn't take place on hexbear

Not at all. There was one person i had an argument with on here and idk, i guess i was kinda standoffish, but i gotta be honest: Me being called "unhinged" or "hysteric" or "bitchy" every time i word things strongly, when pre transition the same behavior was perfectly fine, is a huge reason why i did this writeup. And as happens so often, that did come from another trans woman.

That's an important part i forgot: Just as with misogyny in general, TMA and TME aren't so much descriptors of who engages in this behavior, but who is a viable target for it.

[–] imogen_underscore@hexbear.net 19 points 1 day ago (1 children)

good post. was there a struggle session about this?

[–] himeneko@hexbear.net 14 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (2 children)

yeah, whipping girl, julia serrano, and tma/tme came up sometimes in the past and it felt like it was against the idea of tma/tme due to serrano writing some exorsexist statements into whipping girl

[–] 389aaa@hexbear.net 7 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

There was a lot of shouting down of anyone who disagreed in threads on that subject, so I'm glad to see things moving in a more reasonable direction.

I stopped using the site for a while and have still never engaged with the trans community here because of how I've been treated by other trans people on this website simply for raising my own experiences in discussions on subjects like that stuff - had it implied I was bigoted against trans men, that I wasn't really trans, that I was exorsexist myself, that I was outright fabricating my experiences, etc etc.

So, yeah, glad to see that reasonable discussion is now actually possible.

Edit:

In fact, it was the very same thread in which I was treated like that that led to this much better thread's creation. Nice.

[–] himeneko@hexbear.net 9 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

yeah that thread skeeved me out when it was posted. was a good thread to self crit for me but i did notice the nothorses post that got cited as a reason to not use such a distinction as tma/tme. i did try to ignore it but it did sour me on interacting as a trans woman on this site

[–] 389aaa@hexbear.net 7 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

Yeah the vibes were fucking rancid. To be quite honest given the subject of discussion it pretty much proved to me that - like most spaces that are rabidly gender accelerationist or abolitionist - there is, like Serano was saying, quite often a bias against binary trans women here.

I was really feeling the women of women thing having everyone in that thread imply my experiences weren't real or didn't matter while they were doing the exact same behavior that Serano was pointing out and that I had experienced of casting being non-binary as being Superior and More Virtuous and Woke than being a binary trans woman - for it's always trans women that get that shit, never trans men, because it's just a manifestation of transmisogyny.

[–] AcidSmiley@hexbear.net 2 points 17 hours ago (1 children)

Yeah, this is my main criticism with that passage from Whipping Girl: I have also experienced that kind of sentiment over and over again, and it always came from TME trans people, i have never seen that behavior from nonbinary transfems and i have not once seen it directed at binary trans men. In the cases were that kind of discourse pops up in trans spaces, it's always transmasc enbies attacking trans women. So i wouldn't call it "binary-phobia", i do disagree with that wording. It's just transmisogyny. But yes, it does happen. That does not mean exorsexism and truscum shit isn't a problem, but i haven't seen any of that anywhere in Whipping Girl, in spite of the text being 20 years old.

Moreover, this line of thinking is a lot more common among cis people. That's not to say that cis people aren't crushingly exorsexist, because they are, but they will shamelessly use the existence of "third genders" in other cultures to tell trans women we are problematic and conservative for medically transitioning or for claiming womanhood instead of allowing ourselves to be relegated to a third gender so that cissies can keep treating us as not-women. Whipping Girl in fact has an entire chapter about that, and keeps bringing up examples of cis people appropriating and weaponizing cherrypicked nonbinary experiences against trans women as "evidence" why nobody should medically transition. It's a standard tactic of terfs to tell trans women we are "reinforcing restrictive views of femininity" by claiming binary womanhood. And yes, ofc they will immediately do a 180 as soon as they are confronted with actual nonbinary people, but that's terfs for ya, they have no actual convictions.

[–] 389aaa@hexbear.net 1 points 12 hours ago

Yeah I'm +2ing all of this, although I'll note I have faced the behavior described from other TMA Non-binary people. Mostly, as indicated, rabidly gender abolitionist or accelerationist ones - that is in fact the primary reason I've never been able to hold to that position.

~~And frankly their theory is a half baked pamphlet that doesn't make sense but that probably counts as sectarianism.~~

I'm not even binary anymore (though I reject the label of non-binary for this among other reasons) but I'm never going to be able to fuck with views that literally led to me being pressured into detransition. Never.

Hopefully this place will be less Like That over time though I'll admit to my hopes being low given how much the mod team used to push gender accelerationism.

[–] CatoPosting@hexbear.net 6 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Is Whipping Girl bad? I'd heard about it and have it as a TBR but haven't started it yet.

[–] 389aaa@hexbear.net 11 points 1 day ago

I personally would not say so. The exorsexism in the book is all pretty typical of the time in which it was written, and it is regardless an extremely important book for articulating the theory of transmisogyny.

People in the older thread being referred to also heavily overplayed how exorsexist it actually was, in my opinion, because they refused to acknowledge some of the things Serano was talking about were factual extant problems within the 'queer community'.

[–] V112347@hexbear.net 9 points 1 day ago

Great post, comrade, thank you. Awareness of transmisogyny and transmisogynoir are critical for creating and maintaining welcoming, safe spaces for transfeminine comrades.

[–] Blockocheese@hexbear.net 11 points 1 day ago

Good post, comrade

[–] Jabril@hexbear.net 12 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Another thing I don't see mentioned much that I learned years ago is that homophobia against cis men is often veiled transmisogyny.

Gay men are attacked for being "like women" and ultimately there is an element of treating them as if they are trans women for being "effeminate men pretending to be women "

[–] SerialExperimentsGay@hexbear.net 13 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I do not feel comfortable with that at all. I don't live in the US, but even over here, transphobia in general and transmisogyny in particular are in a completely different ballpark than homophobia and there's an entire genre of gay men who constantly center themselves in every discussion and think their lived experience with homophobia gives them a free pass for being as transphobic, misogynist, racist, biphobic, fatshaming and zionist as humanly possible.

This isn't surprising, either. Large parts of the queer community were built up during the AIDS pandemic by gay cis men, who admittedly did heroic, laudable, groundbreaking work back then that we should absolutely be more aware of, as that era has been completely memory holed outside of queer spaces. However, that history has also created structures in which gay men often have a very, very firm grip on institutional power. I know gay organizers who are very, very keen on centering and promoting intersectionally marginalized queers, who are critical of homonationalist / rainbow imperialist tendencies and try to create inclusive spaces that defuse the struggle between established gay scene and straddling queer grassroots organizing. They are out there and that's great. But it's not universal.

Identity and discourse are one thing, but they mean nothing without also looking at the material realities they unfold in. And in that reality, the gap between gay cis men and trans women is about the largest in the entire LGBTQIA+ community.

[–] Jabril@hexbear.net 9 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Oh of course there are tons of cis gays who still are still transphobes, in the same way there are non white upholders of white supremacy who still experience racism or women who experience misogyny that perpetuate it through the cis men they benefit from.

My point is that the specific angle levied against many cis gay men is that they are rejecting their masculinity, acting like or pretending to be women. There is a level of transmisogyny to that angle of attack, and not all is gay men are targeted in that way. Transmisogyny is more pervasive than people realize (since outside of trans communities it never comes up) and its logic is used against even transphobic queer people

[–] Ceres@hexbear.net 5 points 1 day ago (2 children)

Im not great at wording my thoughts on this but wanted to say that the TMA/TME stuff, even with your clarifications, makes me pretty uncomfortable. I think a lot of these things are too unpredictable to take a mechanism of oppression and make it a status that applies as a dichotomy, defining the kind of oppression you may face by what you are doesn't work with how the goalposts can shift at any moment (either interpersonally or societally). There's also gotta be a better way to address the issues you bring up that doesn't come across so diminishing to trans mascs who absolutely can be affected by traumas in the same way you describe.

[–] Arahnya@hexbear.net 2 points 22 hours ago (1 children)

we transmascs have anti-transmasculinity.

idk I think its fine, sometimes transmascs say stuff like "we're the most oppressed!!" in regards to being caught up in transmisogyny(noir), and I think they need to maybe sit down and be quiet sometimes 🀷

[–] Ceres@hexbear.net 1 points 21 hours ago

Thats of course happens too, but my stance is that each angle of oppression is gonna be on a per person basis, not based on categories or status.

[–] V112347@hexbear.net 5 points 1 day ago (1 children)

How would you prefer to describe the intersection of misogyny and transphobia? Not asking rhetorically, I'm genuinely curious for your perspective. I don't think analysing that intersection diminishes trans masculine struggles, but obviously there are other perspectives on how to approach this.

[–] Ceres@hexbear.net 3 points 21 hours ago (1 children)

discussion of specific violencesI think its best described with the term transmisogyny. People in positions of power are aware of what they're doing when the transmisogyny is misdirected, affecting all sorts of groups. Cis women are being made to pay for gene testing to compete in sports (framed as being about stopping trans women), trans men are having reproductive rights attacked by having systems tell them that their role is childbirth cause thats what women are for (coming from a similar place of trans women being denied recognition for not being able to give birth). And then in all of this intersex people are erased aggressively. Cis men are forced to adhere to a shrinking definition of a truly cis man, leading to all sorts of choices that hurt them. Within a space its important for people to be comfortable talking about less common experiences with this kind of oppression, which is why its good to be shining a light on the harassment that AcidSmiley. Also, its an example of how thinking masculinity protects you from misogyny leads people (the harassers mentioned) to doing these kinds of things from a position of perceived but tenuous privilege, because it will be taken away by other groups when convienient.

I guess to summarize I think understanding how these axii of oppression can potentially affect anyone when society needs an angle of attack, and more angles is more effective, is the better way to avoid splitting queer communities and prevent transmisogyny from those who think they're safe from it. Also, an attempt to rigidly define TME will lead to GNC trans women being told their not really affected by transmisogyny which is absurd.

And yeah I got good faith vibes from this discussion, im engaging with it like that, even if I feel strongly about the harm of the rhetoric used. Analyzing that intersection is a good thing.

[–] AcidSmiley@hexbear.net 2 points 17 hours ago* (last edited 17 hours ago) (1 children)

Your approach leads to individualist reductionism. It refuses to engage with the systemic factors at play and instead vaguely gestures at a hollowed-out, meaningless definition of "transmisogyny for everybody" that obfuscates the root causes of transmisogynist opression and eradicates those most affected by it from the discourse by equating us with a cis guy who has decided to wear a skirt today. Sorry for being so direct, but i have no patience to mince words about my erasure.

Firstly, yes, cis women, GNC men and transmasc nonbinary people can also be targeted by "misdirected" transmisogyny (a problematic term in my opinion, as it implies that transmisogyny hitting me is aimed at the correct target). However, attacking a cis woman or other TME person by insinuating they are transfeminine only works because trans women exist as a hypermarginalized group that is ok to bully, harass and attack in any way people please. Claiming that a person is secretly a trans woman is marking her as a target for transmisogynists. It would not work if trans women in themselves were not subject to a particularly vile and unique form of discrimination.

Secondly, TME people as a group are frequently better protected than TMA people. This frequently gives them better legal recourse in a structurally transphobic justice system, it will make a lot of people wave away the attacks against them as ridiculous, it also usually means they have a more robust support network and a better material position. No, not every TME person has better ressources than any trans woman, but the disproportionate economic marginalization of trans women is a sad statistical fact, the gender pay gap affects us even more than cis women, we are much more likely to be homeless, are more likely to be isolated from our families, to have lost friends and so on and so forth.

The latter point is were your "we have to judge this on a purely indicidual basis" approach betrays its liberalism: You refuse to recognize transfeminized people as a class. In your approach, nothing means anything and the only thing you gain from it is not making trans men and transmasc nonbinary people uncomfortable when they lack the ability to reckon their relative privilege. I have written several paragraphs about the relativity of that privilege and it is somehow still not enough for you.

Edit: Also yes, telling GNC trans women they are TME would indeed be absurd, which is why literally nobody is doing that.

[–] Ceres@hexbear.net 2 points 15 hours ago

Your points are not what I was trying to say, but im not sure a better way of wording my stance, idk if it helps for me to repeat. We are pretty in alignment but defining people as being exempt or not cant be a helpful way of approaching these systemic factors that will shift the goalposts to maintain these hypermarginized groups. Maybe less so in as an analysis and instead as a form of rhetoric, which does matter in spaces like this where impressions are unfortunately important (theres no opportunity to know people personally due to the anonymous nature). Im emphasizing how people are not safe from these shifting axii of oppression because it would make trans men trying to take advantage of the patriarchy uncomfortable or maybe a better word is selfaware.

[–] vovchik_ilich@hexbear.net 5 points 1 day ago

Good post. Thanks for educating me, I appreciate the patience and time it took for you to write this down for less informed people like me

[–] Sam@hexbear.net 6 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Whats your opinion on the idea that TMA / TME stuff could aliennate transfem eggs?

[–] AcidSmiley@hexbear.net 22 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I'm not familiar with it, but if this is about blaming transfems of all people for alienating eggs, it's honestly infuriating somebody has the gall to come up with that.

[–] MeetMeAtTheMovies@hexbear.net 13 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

As an ex-egg, the kind of stuff that my denial made me sensitive to really wasn’t anyone else’s fault. I felt a lot of guilt about being β€œa man” who happened to be in transfemme spaces a lot. But looking back, no one ever did anything that made that a reasonable cause for guilt. Big difference between triggers and slights.

[–] CatoPosting@hexbear.net 5 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I have tons of guilt about being "a man" and being recently disabled has increased it because I read myself into lots of the "bad boyfriend/husband" content and worry about being a burden on my partner. I'm also in the process of figuring out if I'm transfemme and its all a toxic soup in my head. Every time I ask for help with anything, or can't help with a chore, I remember how my grandfather never lifted a finger and worry that I'm becoming the same person, even as I know that's internalized ableism. Not even sure why I'm writing this here, you just brought it all to mind with your comment.

[–] MeetMeAtTheMovies@hexbear.net 7 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Oof yeah I really understand a lot of that. A lot of my early transition was 20% gender experimentation and 80% heavy therapy and medication to untangle a lot of the things that had kept me closeted even from myself for so long. The soup got a little less soupy and that’s helped with the internalized transphobia as well as the internalized ableism. Also, yeah those bad husband videos were a real brainworm for me for a long time. Part of not worrying so much about that was coming to terms with the fact that my parents never taught me how to clean or prepare food so I was decades behind on a bunch of key life skills, though, so YMMV. My partner helped a lot with the ableism stuff. Just hundreds if not thousands of gentle reminders to be kind to myself spanning years. Hope you get some stuff worked out. Those are very understandable struggles.

[–] CatoPosting@hexbear.net 3 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Somehow knowing I'm not alone in what I'm feeling is immensely comforting. Thanks

Of course! Feel free to DM me if you want to talk more

[–] Hermes@hexbear.net 5 points 1 day ago (1 children)

So in light of a recent discussion that was apparently very unpleasant for everybody involved

For the hexbears among us who missed it, what is the discussion you are referring to? In line with this post: https://hexbear.net/post/7775005

[–] AcidSmiley@hexbear.net 10 points 1 day ago

It was in an old thread and i decided to not link it because the person i was arguing with seemed really upset. I do not mean this thread as a callout of anybody, i want to clear up misconceptions and not air out dirty laundry.