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[-] SirEDCaLot@lemmy.today 42 points 6 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

I think most commenters here are missing the point.

There is a more extreme reaction to transgender people as opposed to gay or lesbian people, because of issues like sports and bathrooms. And that hits at people's sense of injustice. For example if you have a young daughter, a lot of people will hate the idea of a person with a penis going into the women's room and being around their little girl. Or if that daughter grows up and joins a sports team, the idea of somebody who is hormonally male and thus naturally more muscular competing against your daughter is unpleasant.

Put differently, I think a lot of people we now classify as 'transphobic' don't actually have much problem with trans people themselves. Rather, with how the efforts to ensure trans people receive the full treatment of their chosen gender can affect the rest of society.

For me personally, I don't know what the answer is. I generally don't care which bathroom you use as long as you wash your hands. I have no problem with anyone presenting themselves to the world as whatever they wish, if it makes you happier than by all means. At the same time though, I don't think it's transphobic to point out that somebody who is largely or entirely biologically male will have a natural competitive advantage in the field of sports.
So while I certainly don't want to exclude anybody, I think there is at least a little justification for restricting some women's sports to those who are genetically female.

[-] Fedizen@lemmy.world 6 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago)

I think the part people don't realize is that like a lot of top athletes just have oddities - higher muscle building hormones, circulatory systems that work better under stress, more cellular receptors for triggering muscle building etc. And at the same time sex hormones aren't the only chemicals that affect these things so there's also a plethora of performance enhancing drugs cascading out of labs at the same time which is genuinely pumping out hulked up muscle freaks (see Liver King's 12k steroid shots per month scandal)

At some point it would just make more sense to just classify sports by weight and build and remove the genital inspection element.

[-] Smoogs@lemmy.world 1 points 5 days ago

Yes, they do this already within gendered sports (different weights to compete) so just remove the gender side of it.

[-] CitricBase@lemmy.world 6 points 6 days ago

I think that one thing you and other centrists are missing is that any kind of regulation isn't just a regulation on trans women, it's a regulation on ALL women. It won't be just trans women that will be put in a position of constantly having their genitals checked.

Be it for bathrooms, sports, whatever, you're opening us up to a world where anyone that fancies themselves an authority will feel empowered to sexually assault any women they want. That's what's at stake here. This is a women's issue, not just a trans issue. Hell, even men will end up getting harassed in bathrooms.

Meanwhile, actual trans people are going to by and large steer clear of segregated contact sports like they've always done, feeling the pain of exclusion and marginalization while deserving none of it.

[-] 31337@sh.itjust.works 5 points 6 days ago

I think I've heard there are a lot of genetically male, but born female people in sports. I wonder if the same people are against those people playing in sports.

Idk how many transphobic people just care about specific issues. There's a lot of "groomer" rhetoric, hate, and general disgust. It's easy to get people to hate what they don't understand; and a lot of media is trying their hardest to cultivate hate against trans people to create an out-group, so they can control the in-group.

[-] SirEDCaLot@lemmy.today 3 points 6 days ago

create an out-group so they can control the in-group

That's not just the media. It's basically everyone in power. Media, politics, government, corporations... Everyone.

It applies to the Democrats too. Especially in the 2016 election, they managed to successfully make Republicans the out-group. But I believe that was hugely damaging to the country, it created a lot more division when what is really needed is unity to focus on the issues that most people can agree on.

Because here's the cold truth- there is a body of policies that probably 80% of Americans would agree on. Things like efficient government, ending government corruption, reducing corporate control over government and elections, reducing income inequality, etc.
To quote Dylan Ratigan's famous rant, the United States is being extracted. And I think most people would like to stop that extraction.
But no major candidate stands for that. Bernie did, but the DNC iced him out because their wealthy corporate donors didn't want Bernie.

And that in my opinion is why Trump won. Harris certainly didn't push any major message of radical reform, just a bunch of the usual 'help the middle class' talk. Trump may be terrifying, but he does push a message of radical reform and changing the system.
To write that off and say half the country is racist or misogynist is to avoid learning from this situation.

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[-] paddirn@lemmy.world 26 points 6 days ago

They’re an easy minority to scapegoat. In the US they make up between 0.5% and 1.6% of the population. A sizable portion of straight people associate being transgender as something sick and weird and a sexual deviancy, so it’s easy to target them and to try to associate them with actual objectively bad things (ie pedophilia). They’re just people trying to find their place in the world and live their lives, same as most of us.

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[-] inv3r510n@lemmy.world 17 points 6 days ago

Because queerness (trans, gender non conforming, gender fluid, agender, bigender and related) threatens hierarchy.

In western society regardless of how ‘progressive’ some parts of it have gotten, for the majority there’s still a strict hierarchy. Man most important, then woman, then children first boys then girls. Trans people completely disrupt this hierarchy by being able to change what they are and those who cling to hierarchy freak the fuck out over it.

Then there’s the sexual panic, a straight man who’s insecure is gonna freak out if the woman they think is cute actually has a penis.

[-] GiveOver@feddit.uk 9 points 6 days ago

If that were true, then it would be trans men getting the most attention because they're the ones cheating their way up this hierarchy. In my experience, 99% of the hate is directed at trans women.

[-] inv3r510n@lemmy.world 8 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago)

If the transphobes thought trans men were men then your comment would be accurate. But they just see them as confused women and easy to just ignore them like they ignore cis women.

(You are right about trans women bearing the brunt of the hate, and I think so much of that is sexual panic from cishet men about finding a penis owner attractive)

[-] graphene@lemm.ee 4 points 6 days ago

Yes! Screw the patriarchy

[-] BoxOfFeet@lemmy.world 3 points 6 days ago

Meh, I don't know if it's strictly a hierarchy thing. I think it's probably more "just" a heteronormative thing. Closed-minded people who don't like things or people that are different. Fear of difference. I'm just speculating, here.

I can also see the sexual panic aspect.

[-] GrammarPolice@lemmy.world 3 points 6 days ago

That's cuz it isn't hierarchy, it's tradition. People have a hard time warming up to things that are very different from the norm.

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[-] josefo@leminal.space 5 points 6 days ago

Conservatives are afraid of change, because they control current status quo. They can't let people escape from that control, so every nail that is a little outside it's hole gets hammered.

In short, they rather prefer trans (and broadly queers) to hide or die, unless they can control them. Everyone different from what they can control is a big danger. Imagine if everyone could be like they feel like? Conservatives see this as chaos, they are the guardians of peace and good values, so anything not already controlled by them is the opposite, chaos, destruction, fire.

That's why they rarely present anything new, their policies and general opinion tend to fight the natural evolution of civilization. USA, as obviously all of the American Continent, was built by immigrants (and slaves). Now they fight immigrants, undocumented ones mostly, because they can't control them. And we know what happened when 'the libs' back then tried to end slavery, you know, other people that they CONTROLLED.

Thanks for coming to my TED Talk.

[-] Smoogs@lemmy.world 2 points 5 days ago

A lot of conservatives want to simplify life because they have a simple mind.

[-] goldenlocks@lemmy.world 5 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago)

I support trans people to do whatever they want to themselves but unfortunately one did shoot up a school https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Nashville_school_shooting

[-] BigDanishGuy@sh.itjust.works 8 points 6 days ago

With trans people making up 0.5-1.6% of the US population, wouldn't it be strange if not a single school shooter was trans?

That question lead me down a rabbit hole: There have been 417 school shootings since Columbine in 1999 https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/interactive/school-shootings-database/

I don't have statistics on the number of school shootings perpetrated by multiple people. But I suspect that it's a miniscule number. So I'm going to go with 417 individuals carrying out acts counted as school shootings. And not to try to be John Oliver or something, but what counts as a school shooting may be as little as this numbnuts who shot them self in the leg in a high school parking lot https://www.wptv.com/news/region-the-glades/belle-glade/lockdown-lifted-at-glades-central-high-school-following-shooting.

0.5% of 417 is 2.1 and 1.6% is 6.7.

Meaning that somewhere between 2 and 7 trans school shooters would indicate that trans people are just as likely as cis people to carry out school shootings. That only a single shooter has been trans, may not be statistically significant, as we're dealing with integers and it's pretty darn close.

So I'm left to conclude that being trans isn't significant in being a school shooter. Trans people may just be as fucked up as the rest of us.

What I'm more interested in is how the trans man in Nashville in 2023 would have counted, if this statistic didn't only cover until 2022 https://www.statista.com/statistics/1463155/active-shooters-us-schools-by-gender/

[-] GrammarPolice@lemmy.world 2 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago)

Your calculation doesn't track. Although i agree with your overarching point, the percentage of trans people in the US between 1999 and now would've been on an upward trajectory, so your calculations would have to account for that

[-] BigDanishGuy@sh.itjust.works 1 points 5 days ago

[...] the percentage of trans people in the US between 1999 and now would've been on an upward trajectory [...]

A larger fraction of the population in most western countries are certainly openly trans now, than were in 1999. But I don't know about all trans people, I think the fraction has stayed the same, but coming out has become easier (I'm not saying that it's easy, I'm saying that I believe that it's easier than in 1999)

But let's assume that you're right, and fewer people used to be trans compared to the population size. That would mean fewer expected school shootings by trans people. Which could explain how the expected interval in my calculations is 2-7 shooters while we've only seen one. Once again confirming that trans people are just people.

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[-] infinite_ass@leminal.space 3 points 6 days ago

Rural IL here. Full of conservatives.

Nobody here cares if you are trans. Couldn't care less.

Never met a school church shooter either.

[-] shasta@lemm.ee 3 points 6 days ago

Most conservatives I know think it's dangerous to entertain trans ideas in children. They say kids don't know what gender really means because they haven't experienced puberty yet but the most effective time to use hormone blockers is before puberty. So they feel like it's the parents who are encouraging use of hormone therapy for their kids because the parents are brainwashed by left media, and essentially committing child abuse.

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[-] Lauchs@lemmy.world 1 points 6 days ago

I don't encounter a lot of ads but I was just listening to the Economist talk about this one which the trump campaign played over and over again and it struck me as a small window of an answer to your question.

The ad strikes me as cruel but the thrust (and I imagine there's a blend of fact and fiction) is that Harris used tax money to pay for a woman's sex change after being convicted of first degree murder and serving life in prison. They also have Harris saying she was using her power to "push forward the movement and the agenda."

Even for supporters of trans rights, I imagine not everyone loves having to defend using tax money to pay for expensive gender surgery, especially on criminals.

So I could see people, who might otherwise be supportive of trans folks in their own lives, being "against trans people" on an issue framed like this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3BXYjoAzq0&ab_channel=TheJimHeathChannel

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this post was submitted on 21 Nov 2024
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