this post was submitted on 09 Sep 2026
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The fun part is that this doesn't even tell me which side of the honey debate you're on.
If you can make both sides of an issue think you're on their side, you win both of their support.
Not a vegan but I am surprised to learn there is a debate amongst vegans about honey.
Honey is an animal byproduct, so technically it is non-vegan, but I think that's kind of pedantic because the bees (ideally) aren't harmed by the apiaries, and the relationships is more of symbiosis rather than exploitation.
I've tried explaining this to vegans and they get really hostile about how apiaries are bee slavery and we need to abolish all forms of subjugation and exploitation, and that I'm a colonialist pig for not seeing it that way.
They also talk about some of the problems with large-scale apiary practices. But those problems are very much known within beekeeping communities, and the average small-time beekeeper is as upset as any vegan about giant corporate monocultures spreading parasites and diseases.
The beekeepers are also very active in trying to solve that problem by regulating large-scale apiary practices, monitoring bee colonies, medicating, funding (and participating in) research, etc.. All stuff that most vegans couldn't be bothered to do.
It's a bit like being against backyard chickens because Tyson and Perdue are an evil industrial ag duopoly.
So… they saw the bee movie and considered a documentary?
Critical thinking skills are on an all time low
Do/can domesticated bees swarm/rewild?
If so it seems like it would be the best argument that bee keeping was mutually consensual.
Are there apiary industry standards/certifications? It seems unlikely most folks are buying the backyard chicken version of honey.
It is possible. When a colony grows too large for the hive it produces a new queen and then splits itself in half. Usually beekeepers who monitor their colonies notice this and start a new hive, but if left to do their own thing (and if there's not a queen trap on the entrance) then one of the queens will take half the colony and go search for a place to build a new hive.
I generally agree, but how do you define that? You can't exactly get a bee to sign a legal document. Sure you could opt against using a queen trap, and make your hive as enticing as possible so they stay. A good apiary will provide ideal conditions, and cultuvate botanical and herb gardens in the immediate surroundings. Basically make it a paradise for bees, and give them medicine too.
Just because some people abuse their dogs doesn't mean pet-keeping as a whole should be damned. Punish the abusers and prevent the abuse as much as you can. But don't take away granny's sweet little shitzu just because Dale down the street kicks his pit.
That unfortunately depends on the state. Some do a better job than others.
Yes but try asking a vegan "Is it fine if I only choose local honey?"
I'm not at all, vegan as a personal trait is a bit of a broad church these days.
There's the people that are mostly motivated by the not-killing-animals thing
Then there's the ones doing it predominantly for environmental reasons
Then you've got the ones doing it for various health reasons
Then you've got people doing it predominantly for cost reasons (fewer here, given vegan is still treated as a luxury aspect in a lot of food categories)
Those groups do not have to overlap in views at all. It's entirely expected for there to be disagreement and purity test drama given that IMO
Honey seems similar to milk - we’re harvesting a secretion. But I think vegans care about more than just killing animals - it’s also about enslaving them, for lack of a better word. Cruelty. And I don’t know enough to argue whether bees are free. It seems like they are - they leave their hives and then return. But their Queen does get moved around by the beekeeper and they are bound to her… its an interesting one.
Yeah, I'm not in any vegan groups but I've seen (what is hopefully) a vocal online minority of those who use the label for killing-is-wrong reasons come off as angrier at folks using it for any other reason than they are at folks who do consume animal products, and insisting that the other camps should use "plant-based (diet)" instead.
Again, can’t tell if that’s because you think it’s an insignificant issue, or if you think the answer is obvious, and if so which answer you think that is. Are you being funny on purpose? If so bravo.
Again? Have we talked about this before?
As a non-vegan who doesn’t spend much time in vegan spaces I wouldn’t say it’s insignificant, but if it hadn’t been brought to my attention as a topic of debate amongst vegans I never would have considered it. I’ve just had a pretty cut and dry understanding that animal products are not vegan.
You can see in my other comments here, my speculation as to how that could be the wrong take. Not because I think any one side or the other is right or wrong, but just trying to understand each position.
I usually am trying to be funny, but not in this case. I’m mostly just disappointed in myself for not knowing why my comment would be funny 😒
I just meant that you were replying to a comment about not being able to discern someone’s true opinion and it was kind of hard to discern the true opinion behind your very reply. That was the “again” part - recursion. I thought perhaps you were being deliberately witty. I would honestly appreciate that kind of humor, in all sincerity. I didn’t mean to make fun of you like haha you’re funny you clown.
I guess you actually meant yet another interpretation, which is that you simply never knew this was a thing and hadn’t imagined it, so were surprised. Fair enough!
There is far more debate about veganism within veganism than there is outside of veganism. Honestly it makes debates with non-vegans look fucking boring.
I've known people who called themselves vegan and still ate fish, there are basically no rules
That's pescatarian, not vegan. Whoever said that was wrong.
But I recognize that confidently saying something is wrong is viewed as arrogant these days. We have to respect everyone's subjectivity, even if that means not saying anything even when they're blatantly wrong.
Like "No, don't keep walking forward. There's a cliff in front of you." "DON'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO! YOU CAN'T CONTROL ME."
Toxic positivity has seeped way too far into the collective unconscious...
Vegan means whatever.
(And for some reason, 'vegetarian' has gone completely out of fashion...)
Probably because vegans bludgeon anyone who calls themselves vegetarians, because apparently we're worse than carnists because we see that there's a problem yet only go partially through with the solution.
Like I've tried going vegan before, but after a few days I get really cranky and then the cravings start and I end up crashing. I never made it a full week, and it made it harder to even stick to vegetarian foods.
But apparently I'm a terrible person if I ever call myself a vegetarian within earshot of a vegan...
Also there are some obnoxious asses out there who insist that it's really "ovo-lacto-vegetarian" because apparently vegetarians only eat plants? I'm like no, that would be vegan.
Not that it's ever been convenient to be vegetarian. But now you get hit from both sides...
weeell
They justified it as something to do with fish/shellfish not having the same kind of pain receptors and consciousness that “real” animals do and argued it was more akin to consuming fungi and bacteria. They didn’t eat dairy products or meat for more traditional vegan reasons. Since it’s this thread, i’ll say they also ate honey lol.
I don’t agree with them, and I do agree with everything you said here. I’m just saying, based on experiences in the field, when someone says to me “I’m vegan” internally I’m like “cool, so you eat whatever you want, just like everyone else” 😂
There are a lot of debates. Vegan as a diet vs. lifestyle for example.
Some call themselves vegan when they have a plant-based diet, some insist that it's a lifestyle and extend beyond just diet, into other aspects of life. Some are pro pets, others are against keeping animals at all.
yeah the fda classifies it as a meat product.
That's just a myth spread around the internet.
Their actual definition is:
https://www.fda.gov/media/110846/download
a definition is not a classification though. how do they categorise it?
As "Honey, jams, jellies, fruit butter, molasses"
https://www.fda.gov/product-categories-and-products
ah, neat!
I did assume vegans would be majority against honey consumption.
Hah! It's roughly 50-50 but even the 50% that doesn't mind honey would usually buy some sort of syrup. It's usually about it being an Ingredient.
Some otherwise vegan sweets are coated in super thin bee's wax, so they don't stick together. Many don't mind, especially if the alternative is wrapping them in plastic.
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