this post was submitted on 01 Jul 2025
833 points (98.8% liked)

Science Memes

15548 readers
3426 users here now

Welcome to c/science_memes @ Mander.xyz!

A place for majestic STEMLORD peacocking, as well as memes about the realities of working in a lab.



Rules

  1. Don't throw mud. Behave like an intellectual and remember the human.
  2. Keep it rooted (on topic).
  3. No spam.
  4. Infographics welcome, get schooled.

This is a science community. We use the Dawkins definition of meme.



Research Committee

Other Mander Communities

Science and Research

Biology and Life Sciences

Physical Sciences

Humanities and Social Sciences

Practical and Applied Sciences

Memes

Miscellaneous

founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
 
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] LoreleiSankTheShip@lemmy.ml 39 points 3 days ago (5 children)

Can someone explain to me in layman's terms why this is the most efficient way?

[–] tiramichu@sh.itjust.works 147 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (4 children)

These categories of geometric problem are ridiculously difficult to find the definitive perfect solution for, which is exactly why people have been grinding on them for decades, and mathematicians can't say any more than "it's the best one found so far"

For this particular problem the diagram isn't answering "the most efficient way to pack some particular square" but "what is the smallest square that can fit 17 unit-sized (1x1) squares inside it" - with the answer here being 4.675 unit length per side.

Trivially for 16 squares they would fit inside a grid of 4x4 perfectly, with four squares on each row, nice and tidy. To fit just one more square we could size the container up to 5x5, and it would remain nice and tidy, but there is then obviously a lot of empty space, which suggests the solution must be in-between. But if the solution is in between, then some squares must start going slanted to enable the outer square to reduce in size, as it is only by doing this we can utilise unfilled gaps to save space by poking the corners of other squares into them.

So, we can't answer what the optimal solution exactly is, or prove none is better than this, but we can certainly demonstrate that the solution is going to be very ugly and messy.

Another similar (but less ugly) geometric problem is the moving sofa problem which has again seen small iterations over a long period of time.

[–] DozensOfDonner@mander.xyz 24 points 3 days ago (2 children)

Lol, the ambidextrous sofa. It's a butt plug.

[–] ouRKaoS@lemmy.today 10 points 3 days ago (1 children)
[–] Rusty@lemmy.ca 5 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Now I want to rewatch Requiem for a dream.

[–] ouRKaoS@lemmy.today 7 points 3 days ago

Requiem is the best movie that I've only wanted to watch once.

[–] CascadianGiraffe@lemmy.world 2 points 3 days ago

It's also a great name for a cover band.

Butt rock covers of gospel songs perhaps?

[–] blackbrook@mander.xyz 9 points 3 days ago (1 children)

All this should tell us is that we have a strong irrational preference for right angles being aligned with each other.

[–] DominatorX1@thelemmy.club 1 points 2 days ago (1 children)

We have an interpreter in our head. It maps and makes sense of the mysterious whatever. Some of it cultural, some biological. It is vast. There might not even be things and space.

[–] blackbrook@mander.xyz 2 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Well yes, and what it means for "there to be things" is a whole discussion in itself. But the concepts of space and time are rather deep and fundamental (to our mental models regardless of how or if that maps to objective reality). The preference for right angles is much less fundamental and we can see past and get over it.

[–] DominatorX1@thelemmy.club 1 points 2 days ago

My point is, when we study our preference for right angles, what we're studying is the interpreter. It has quirks.

[–] cyrano@lemmy.dbzer0.com 9 points 3 days ago

Thanks for the explanation

[–] DominatorX1@thelemmy.club 1 points 2 days ago

For A problem like this. If I was going to do it with an algorithm I would just place shapes at random locations and orientations a trillion times.

It would be much easier with a discreet tile type system of course

[–] GenderNeutralBro@lemmy.sdf.org 24 points 3 days ago (1 children)

It's not necessarily the most efficient, but it's the best guess we have. This is largely done by trial and error. There is no hard proof or surefire way to calculate optimal arrangements; this is just the best that anyone's come up with so far.

It's sort of like chess. Using computers, we can analyze moves and games at a very advanced level, but we still haven't "solved" chess, and we can't determine whether a game or move is perfect in general. There's no formula to solve it without exhaustively searching through every possible move, which would take more time than the universe has existed, even with our most powerful computers.

Perhaps someday, someone will figure out a way to prove this mathematically.

[–] woodenghost@hexbear.net 8 points 3 days ago (1 children)

They proved it for n=5 and 10.

[–] exasperation@lemmy.dbzer0.com 11 points 3 days ago

And the solutions we have for 5 or 10 appear elegant: perfect 45° angles, symmetry in the packed arrangement.

5 and 10 are interesting because they are one larger than a square number (2^2 and 3^2 respectively). So one might naively assume that the same category of solution could fit 4^2 + 1, where you just take the extra square and try to fit it in a vertical gap and a horizontal gap of exactly the right size to fit a square rotated 45°.

But no, 17 is 4^2 + 1 and this ugly abomination is proven to be more efficient.

[–] Devadander@lemmy.world 20 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Any other configurations results in a larger enclosed square. This is the most optimal way to pack 17 squares that we’ve found

[–] red_bull_of_juarez@lemmy.dbzer0.com 14 points 3 days ago (2 children)

It crams the most boxes into the given square. If you take the seven angled boxes out and put them back in an orderly fashion, I think you can fit six of them. The last one won't fit. If you angle them, this is apparently the best solution.

What I wonder is if this has any practical applications.

[–] 7bicycles@hexbear.net 6 points 3 days ago

yeah it vindicates my approach of packing stuff via just throwing it in there. no I'm not lazy and disorderly, this is optimal cargo space usage

[–] fox@hexbear.net 5 points 3 days ago

There's very likely applications in algorithms that try to maximize resource usage while minimizing cost

[–] a_party_german@hexbear.net 9 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

It's a problem about minimizing the side length of the outer rectangle in order to fit rectangles of side length 1 into it.

It's somehow the most efficient way for 17 rectangles because math.

These are the solutions for the numbers next to 17: