129
top 50 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[-] Arelin@lemmy.zip 106 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Just as capitalist states are "authoritarian" against working class interests, socialist states are "authoritarian" against capitalist interests.

The state is a tool for one class to oppress another. The goal of (most) communists is to transition from capitalism — where the capitalist class is in power — to a stateless, classless communist society via socialism — where the working class is in power.

Public perception of which is more "authoritarian" therefore depends on which class is currently in power and is able to manufacture consent, and that is the capitalist class in the vast majority of the world right now since the USSR's overthrow.

[-] davel@lemmy.ml 25 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)
load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments (5 replies)
[-] Alsephina@lemmy.ml 73 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

With the USSR overthrown, virtually all mainstream media now is capitalist propaganda. And the capitalist class obviously would not want the working class to prefer a system where workers are in power.

[-] xmunk@sh.itjust.works 39 points 1 week ago

Being familiar with Bulgarian corruption, I'm going to confidently state that their percentages aren't due to a rounding error.

I was in Hungary last year and the nostalgia for communism is high and a significant portion of the population still remembers all the bad parts - Orban has really destroyed the social safety nets there and it hurts to see.

[-] angel@lemmy.ml 27 points 1 week ago

Hungary was also the best part of the Soviet Bloc to live in for the people.

So it's not just that modern Hungary is worse: communist Hungary is more miss-able than communist East Germany.

Nigel Swain's two books on the subject are good:

  • Collective Farms Which Work? (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1985)

  • Hungary: The Rise and Fall of Feasible Socialism (London: New Left Books, 1992)

He's writing from the perspective of a non-red English academic who's like.... "wait... this works?? how do we explain the anomaly?"

Hungary had full shelves, booming agriculture, available consumer goods.

[-] Sagittarii@lemm.ee 23 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

I'd also expect there's more and more people propagandized by capitalist media in post-Soviet states as time has passed since capitalist bastards took it over. People who have not lived under socialism or experienced the massively decreased quality of life from the privatization forced on those countries.

Though fortunately it seems like the Russian capitalists have not managed to succeed in this, with more and more people identifying with the USSR than the capitalist Russian Federation in recent years.

Hard to do that at the heart of the revolution I guess. Maybe Russian communist parties could use that to become more revolutionary, specially with Russians able to see the stark difference between Russia under capitalism and China thriving under socialism. Doubt that'll happen while Putin is in power though.

load more comments (10 replies)
[-] hperrin@lemmy.world 69 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Because we live in a capitalist society where capitalists control our media and education. Back in the fifties, you’d be jailed or even killed for being a communist (or gay) in the United States of America. Why do we view this as any less authoritarian than the USSR? Because it’s our past.

load more comments (2 replies)
[-] ShimmeringKoi@hexbear.net 57 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

When slaves rise up and throw the master out of the house they built, the master's first instinct is to gather his friends and and crush the uprising before it's example can inspire others. If the former slaves want to keep their freedom, and if they don't want their sacrifices to have been for nothing, they need to secure the house, and quickly.

In 1917, the people of Russia cast off their feudal monarch. In 1918, America and nine other countries invaded Russia to fight for the czar, to crush the worker's uprising and restore the monarch to the throne. They don't teach us about it in school.

Here's a 2 minute bop set to a Parenti lecture that covers this. The basic fact is that a capitalist empire will never willingly surrender control of an exploitable land where labor and resources can be had for cheap or free, not without a fight. The lecture is at least 30 years old now, but has only gotten more prescient with the genocidal crackdown in Palestine against a liberation movement that threatens America's ability to control the region's trade through it's military outpost of Isreal. To make it even more relevant, there are communist groups like the PFLP fighting the IOF in Palestine at this very moment-this is all very much one struggle against economic imperialism, and against colonialism.

Just as an aside, we here in the capitalist west are authoritarian as fuck lol, we've just structured our systems of exploitation in such a way that it looks like a million separate companies fucking you over instead of an entire economic model fucking everyone over (and enforced at gunpoint), which is what it is.

[-] dessalines@lemmy.ml 38 points 1 week ago

To add, there is only one country on earth with > 800 external military bases, and through an incredibly effective propanda campaign, they've managed to convince the world that its not them, but their enemies that are "totalitarian" and "authoritarian".

load more comments (2 replies)
[-] idkmybffjoeysteel@hexbear.net 31 points 1 week ago

On your last point, if somebody wants an example of how ordinary everyday capitalism is violent, they should imagine what will happen to them if they do not pay their debts or cannot make their rent. These things are enforced with violence.

[-] yogthos@lemmy.ml 51 points 1 week ago

one of my favorite takes on this subject is from This Soviet World by Anna Louise Strong:

[-] davel@lemmy.ml 39 points 1 week ago

This Soviet World

Most Americans shrink from the word “dictatorship.” “I don’t want to be dictated to,” they say. Neither, in fact, does anyone. But why do they instinctively take the word in its passive meaning, and see themselves as the recipients of orders? Why do they never think that they might be the dictators? Is that such an impossible idea? Is it because they have been so long hammered by the subtly misleading propaganda about personal dictatorships, or is it because they have been so long accustomed to seek the right to life through a boss who hires them, that the word dictatorship arouses for them the utterly incredible picture of one man giving everybody orders?

No country is ruled by one man. This assumption is a favorite red herring to disguise the real rule. Power resides in ownership of the means of production—by private capitalists in Italy, Germany and also in America, by all workers jointly in the USSR. This is the real difference which today divides the world into two systems, in respect to the ultimate location of power. When a Marxist uses the word “dictatorship,” he is not alluding to personal rulers or to methods of voting; he is contrasting rule by property with rule by workers.

The heads of government in America are not the real rulers. I have talked with many of them from the President down. Some of them would really like to use power for the people. They feel baffled by their inability to do so; they blame other branches of government, legislatures, courts. But they haven’t analyzed the real reason. The difficulty is that they haven’t power to use. Neither the President nor Congress nor the common people, under any form of organization whatever, can legally dispose of the oil of Rockefeller or the gold in the vaults of Morgan. If they try, they will be checked by other branches of government, which was designed as a system of checks and balances precisely to prevent such “usurpation of power.” Private capitalists own the means of production and thus rule the lives of millions. Government, however chosen, is limited to the function of making regulations which will help capitalism run more easily by adjusting relations between property and protecting it against the “lawless” demands of non-owners. This constitutes what Marxists call the dictatorship of property. “The talk about pure democracy is but a bourgeois screen,” says Stalin, “to conceal the fact that equality between exploiters and exploited is impossible. . . . It was invented to hide the sores of capitalism . . . and lend it moral strength.”

Power over the means of production—that gives rule. Men who have it are dictators. This is the power the workers of the Soviet Union seized in the October Revolution. They abolished the previously sacred right of men to live by ownership of private property. They substituted the rule: “He who does not work, neither shall he eat.” -

[-] Achyu@lemmy.sdf.org 44 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Isn't that generally said by countries that oppose them?

The land of the less authoritarian had race discrimination until half a century ago, right? Seeing the BLM, it seems to have a prominent role even now. So are they any better?

[-] Dasus@lemmy.world 44 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)
[-] RobotToaster@mander.xyz 43 points 1 week ago

Because of who controls the presses in capitalist countries.

load more comments (1 replies)
[-] GarbageShoot@hexbear.net 42 points 1 week ago

Because authority carried out under the pretenses of private property is whitewashed in liberal states, who are the ones in your question doing the "considering".

[-] huf@hexbear.net 39 points 1 week ago

because capitalists have to lie about reality to preserve their ill gotten gains.

[-] dessalines@lemmy.ml 38 points 1 week ago

From Losurdo - A critique of the category of totalitarianism:

Nowadays we constantly hear denunciations, directed toward Islam, of ‘religious totalitarianism’ or of the ‘new totalitarian enemy that is terrorism’. The language of the Cold War has reappeared with renewed vitality, as confirmed by the warning that American Senator Joseph Lieberman has issued to Saudi Arabia: beware the seduction of Islamic totalitarianism, and do not let a ‘theological iron curtain’ separate you from the Western world.

Even though the target has changed, the denunciation of totalitarianism continues to function with perfect efficiency as an ideology of war against the enemies of the Western world. And this ideology justifies the violation of the Geneva Convention, the inhuman treatment of prisoners in Guantanamo Bay, the embargo and collective punishment inflicted upon the Iraqis and other peoples, and the further torment perpetrated against the Palestinians. The struggle against totalitarianism serves to legitimate and transfigure the total war against the ‘barbarians’ who are alien to the Western world.

[-] Tabitha@hexbear.net 33 points 1 week ago

It's simple to label a government as "authoritarian" just because they have things called "laws" that prevent you from exploiting their people. Likewise, it's convenient to repeatedly tell your citizens that distant, non-English-speaking countries are "authoritarian." The truth is, for every Westerner who can afford to travel and verify these claims, a million others will just accept what the media tells them. They'll even go on to reinforce these narratives, despite having no firsthand experience or direct connection to these places.

[-] Bloobish@hexbear.net 33 points 1 week ago

Projection of the contradiction of capital, capitalists states only allow freedom to those that can pay and has the illusion of free choice only when it comes to consumption.

[-] AOCapitulator@hexbear.net 31 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Exclusively based on vibes and lies/media presentation. It's just manufactured concensus, we teach 9 year Olds that it's freedom VS authoritarian capitalism VS communism

It's just bullshit, capitalist countries are authoritarian as fuck

[-] axont@hexbear.net 31 points 1 week ago

Authoritarian is usually code for when white people don't rule a country

[-] davel@lemmy.ml 26 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Reporter: [REDACTED]
Reason: racism

We really ought to teach critical race theory in schools like conservative politicians and pundits claim.

[-] axont@hexbear.net 20 points 1 week ago

lmao did someone really report me over getting their precious little white feelings hurt?

load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments (51 replies)
[-] Sickos@hexbear.net 29 points 1 week ago

Because propaganda works

[-] NigelFrobisher@aussie.zone 26 points 1 week ago

Because mass media, manufactured consent, and regulatory capture are the “good” kind of coercion.

[-] davel@lemmy.ml 25 points 1 week ago

Because our bourgeois state propaganda and corporate media tell us that they are, because it’s in their best interest that we believe it.

[-] radiofreeval@hexbear.net 24 points 1 week ago
[-] Cethin@lemmy.zip 22 points 1 week ago

I see a lot of comments saying they aren't. I'd disagree, but I agree they don't have to be. The issue is most of the major powers in the world have opposed leftist governments anytime they show up. The ones that didn't have a strong central power and cultural hegymony collapsed under the pressure. Any nation that had a weaker central power was either destroyed, couped, or undermined by the west.

There is nothing intrinsically authoritarian about leftism (really, I'd say it's less authoritarian in it's ideals), but authoritarianism is easier to hold together when outside pressures are trying to destroy you.

[-] Erika3sis@hexbear.net 21 points 1 week ago

I could say that bourgeois ownership of media and academia and the state means that those institutions will represent the biases and interests of the bourgeoisie, and so people in first-world capitalist countries end up living in a sort of self-propagating anti-communist media bubble; but the thing about propaganda is that people are rarely ever truly "tricked" by it, propaganda is always most effective when it reinforces something that someone already believes on some level.

This is why the second part to building anti-communist sentiment has to do with super-exploitation, imperialism, and the labor aristocracy. This is to say, workers in first-world capitalist countries are materially invested in capitalism, through various perks and "treats" that workers of "poorer" countries are deprived of. By being materially invested in capitalism, workers of the first world are primed to take on a sort of "bourgeois mindset", as it were.

There's more that can be said, too, I'd strongly recommend listening to this speech by the leader of Revolutionary Grenada, Maurice Bishop, but I think that's a good start...

load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments
view more: next ›
this post was submitted on 09 May 2024
129 points (88.2% liked)

Asklemmy

42066 readers
855 users here now

A loosely moderated place to ask open-ended questions

Search asklemmy 🔍

If your post meets the following criteria, it's welcome here!

  1. Open-ended question
  2. Not offensive: at this point, we do not have the bandwidth to moderate overtly political discussions. Assume best intent and be excellent to each other.
  3. Not regarding using or support for Lemmy: context, see the list of support communities and tools for finding communities below
  4. Not ad nauseam inducing: please make sure it is a question that would be new to most members
  5. An actual topic of discussion

Looking for support?

Looking for a community?

~Icon~ ~by~ ~@Double_A@discuss.tchncs.de~

founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS