this post was submitted on 15 Jul 2026
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[–] robocall@lemmy.world 46 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

What does this have to do with atheists?

[–] NateNate60@lemmy.world 66 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (6 children)

This is a common "gotcha" argument that floats around the Internet. Essentially, it posits that under the teachings of a given religion (typically Christianity), there is a source of morality which is absolute. That might be the religion's holy text, deity, or the religious authorities of that religion. In either case, there is one authoritative source which dictates what is morally correct and not correct for the entire universe from now until eternity.

So, the argument goes, if one is to reject the teachings of this or all religions, as irreligious people do, it necessarily means accepting that morality is inherently relative and that there is no absolute standard for mortality that is universally applicable. Therefore, as the argument goes, since one would have to accept that morality is relative, it can be framed relative to anything or nothing, and therefore there is no act which can be immoral relative to any reference frames in a context without religion. And therefore, nothing can be said to be immoral because whether it is moral is relative.

That's the end of the argument.

To its credit, there isn't anything wrong with this argument. But I do believe the argument posits that conclusion to be far worse than it really is. Suppose I am an irreligious person. Why is fornication with roadkill immoral? Well, because I think it is. It makes me feel bad and the reward gained isn't worth the risk (the embarrassment of being seen in the act or catching some disease from it). Therefore I don't do it. Is it possible that some person could think that it is moral? Yes, absolutely. But that doesn't matter, because even if relative to one person's moral compass an act is moral, doesn't mean that people in general can't just collectively reject that perspective and condemn the act as a group. In fact, human societies imposing their views on what is and is not moral relative to their own experience describes pretty much the entirety of human history.

Edit: To sum up, my counter argument is that yes, all morality is relative. I don't see how this is a bad thing. Humans have the ability to reason and reject moral viewpoints which they collectively find repulsive. They do not have to accept it just because someone else thinks that way.

[–] ccryx@discuss.tchncs.de 16 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

I think there are (at least) two things wrong with the argument:

  1. it assumes that there can be no source of absolute morality aside from religion, ignoring centuries if not millennia of moral philosophy/ethics (which at least tries to answer the question seriously).
  2. even if nonreligious sources of morality don't exist, the argument assumes that religion is a source of absolute morality. since conflicting religions exist, the religionness-property alone is not enough to validate religion as a source of absolute morality.
[–] PlasmaSnake@lemmy.world 11 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (2 children)

It doesn't assume that there is no source of absolute morality. It says that religious people are incorrect to derive their absolute source of mortality from a deity, whether it exists or not

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[–] Chozo@fedia.io 12 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

It sounds an awful lot to me like Christians want to fuck horses. Or at the VERY least, they spend a concerning amount of time thinking about fucking horses.

[–] UntimedDiffusion@piefed.zip 10 points 3 weeks ago

Well obviously they don't think about fucking horses, that would just be weird. Children, on the other hand...

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[–] FishFace@piefed.social 10 points 3 weeks ago (5 children)

More succinctly, the argument is: without religion, there is no source of moral authority other than the disapproval of others. Acts that have no chance of being discovered would therefore not be subject to any moral judgment and must be permissible, even if clearly wrong.

This is a contradiction with those acts being clearly wrong.

There are multiple ways of attacking this naive argument.

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[–] Thatuserguy@lemmy.world 38 points 3 weeks ago (12 children)

This just puts the image in my head of a religious person seeing someone having sex with a dead deer on the side of the road and their first reaction being "Oh my god he's sinning!" and not "Why the fuck is that freak fucking a dead deer on the side of the road"

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[–] tacosanonymous@mander.xyz 37 points 3 weeks ago (14 children)

Morally wrong? No. Disgusting and disrespectful? Absolutely.

[–] Passerby6497@lemmy.world 12 points 3 weeks ago (8 children)

Morally wrong? No.

Is it not? I'm not religious, but I still find it morally wrong to have sex with something that didn't consent to it.

Whether the animal is alive or dead, it isn't able to consent. And since the animal cannot consent, it is therefore rape, making it morally wrong.

[–] kkj@lemmy.dbzer0.com 13 points 3 weeks ago (3 children)

A dildo also isn't able to consent. A carrot isn't able to consent and is more alive than the roadkill (since it can still reproduce). Ability to consent is something we require from conscious beings, but we generally don't require it from objects, and corpses blur the line.

I definitely get the "ick" feeling from necrophilia, so my knee-jerk reaction is to consider it immoral, but it isn't actually that easy to come up with a consistent justification for that condemnation.

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[–] HeHoXa@lemmy.zip 13 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

I cannot fucking believe I'm going to participate here...

... but when you're talking to someone about organ donation, you'd typically say something like "You can't take them with you. That isn't you anymore. You're dead. It's just meat now."

... and that's as much as I'm going to say because gross

[–] abysmalpoptart@lemmy.world 12 points 3 weeks ago (8 children)

But this is actually why we decide whether or not we participate in postmortem organ donation while we're alive - we make the conscious decision ahead of time. Which is still then consistent with the consent argument

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[–] TheFunkyMonk@lemmy.world 35 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

As an atheist… the fuck did I just read?

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[–] kolmaskommentoija@sopuli.xyz 29 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

The one time I saw a post about bestiality and necrophilia, someone was saying it is common for hunters to fuck their kills, because the adrenaline of the hunt and all, makes them horny and crazy. No reason to bring it up here, though, I just want you all to suffer with me.

[–] chiliedogg@lemmy.world 21 points 3 weeks ago (4 children)

I've shot a lot of animals through the years. "Horny" is now how I would describe the aftermath.

Mostly it's mild annoyance because now I have to clean it, which is a PITA.

[–] salvaria@lemmy.blahaj.zone 13 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)
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[–] sangeteria@lemmy.ml 13 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

I think someone was messing with you

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[–] saltesc@lemmy.world 27 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Well it's not going to fuck itself, clearly.

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[–] AccoSpoot1@lemmy.world 27 points 3 weeks ago (5 children)

Fucken christ can you imagine this guy answering the Trolley Problem?

"Okay so there's a trolley"

"I fuck the trolley!"

"No, wait- so there's a trolley and it's gonna run over either one person or three-"

"Oh! I wait for it to run everyone over and then I fuck their lifeless corpses!"

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[–] Dookieman12@piefed.social 27 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

"Look, I'm not saying you should drive around at night time with your high beams on looking for deer to run over. That would be wrong.

BUT

If you're just out, driving along, minding your own business, and you accidentally hit a deer or maybe you find one that's already been run over, well.... I mean, no sense in letting perfectly good deer poon go to waste, right? Like, if it's still warm and everything, it'd almost be rude NOT to fuck it, know what I mean?"

[–] HertzDentalBar@lemmy.blahaj.zone 12 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Yea untill accidently one time your driving on pcp and you hit a pedestrian thinking it's a deer and boom you have not just necrophilia charges but rape charges because he wasn't quite dead when you started.

Checkmate atheists!

[–] Dookieman12@piefed.social 12 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Dang, you got me there. Good thing you replied before my nightly pcp cruise, I could have done a sin

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[–] unemployedclaquer@sopuli.xyz 18 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Please don't fuck dead things. You will likely get an infection. No one else wants to put up with your infected silly bad decisions. That's the morality of it.

[–] sangeteria@lemmy.ml 7 points 3 weeks ago (3 children)

What if you cooked or pasteurized the roadkill

[–] malformed3955@lemmy.world 13 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Is it immoral to fuck a cheeseburger if you still eat it?

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[–] remon@ani.social 18 points 3 weeks ago (4 children)

So ... is that what they mean when they say "use every part of the animal"?

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[–] mr_satan@lemmy.zip 17 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (2 children)

It ~~not being immoral~~ being moral or immoral has nothing to do with it being dangerous and disgusting. Asking about morality of fucking roadkill is basic strawman does nothing to checkmate anything.

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[–] Wataba@sh.itjust.works 13 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Is it moral to continue being part of an organization that rapes children?

Dont let them play distraction tactics.

[–] remon@ani.social 8 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

What does the US government have to do with this?

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[–] DisasterTransport@startrek.website 12 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (4 children)

I mean there's a lot of arguments for the act to be wrong that have nothing to do with any god. Most believers will reach for consequence or virtue themselves.

  1. Allowing people to fuck animals, alive or dead, may normalize the behavior. Fucking animals is a high risk activity. Allowing you to fuck an animal may indirectly cause someone to get sick. You could even become patient zero for a zoonotic plague, in which case you could hurt a lot of people.
  2. Behavior so far outside the shared moral framework is corrosive. In doing somethig so radically taboo you damage the fabric of society. We, as inhabitants and builders of society, have a moral obligation to uphold rules that allow polite society to function. Rules like "don't fuck dead animals".
  3. Do you really wanna be the kinda guy that can honestly say he's fucked a dead deer? Engaging in deviant behavior erodes your dignity and makes it more likely for you to continue to behave antisocially in the future.

Thisbcommebt was a waste of time but I had fun writing it

Edit: you guys these are examples of arguments that have nothing to do with god, I will not debate you on the ethics of having sex with animals. Personally, I ain't about that shit. I don't need a formalized, airtight reason to abstain. You do you tho. Preferably far away from me.

[–] PlasmaSnake@lemmy.world 14 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (5 children)
  1. This means that if we find a cure for contagious diseases then fucking dead animals becomes okay
  2. "Shared moral framework" sounds like a fancy word with no actual logical backing behind it
  3. How do we decide which deviant behaviour is acceptable and which is unacceptable
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[–] chunes@lemmy.world 12 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

Why are there so many posts about necrophilic bestiality lately

[–] tigeruppercut@lemmy.zip 15 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

We finished all the conversations about beans

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[–] r1veRRR@feddit.org 12 points 3 weeks ago

Don't Buddhists use a similar loop hole to eat meat? In theory, they shouldn't be killing and eating animals because of the non-violence. But if they launder it via some other hunter, that's fine.

[–] RedIce25@lemmy.world 11 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (1 children)

Wtf, do they think necrophilia/bestiality is morally acceptable just because "atheist"?

[–] yermaw@sh.itjust.works 15 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (1 children)

Because theres no "harm" being done. Its already dead so it doesn't care, nobody is around together traumatised so they dont care.

Its obviously wrong but without Daddy God telling you its naughty its not so easy to explain why. I kinda want to see the Bible passage that says "dont fuck an animal corpse ye faithfulle"

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[–] GalacticGrapefruit@lemmy.world 11 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

(sigh) I can't believe I have to say this twice on the same site.

Fucking a dead deer is just as immoral and dangerous as fucking a live one. Their bodies will still be host to a variety of potentially dangerous infectious diseases that may cross the species divide and become human-transmissible. This is a threat to your own health as well as public health.

For the love of any god that still might care, do not fuck roadkill. We do NOT need another HIV.

[–] ddplf@szmer.info 14 points 3 weeks ago (7 children)

Not what this is about, it being dangerous does not make it immoral, those are two completely unrelated planes.

[–] GalacticGrapefruit@lemmy.world 9 points 3 weeks ago

The "as well as public health" bit is the important one.

Humans are a social species. Most human infectious diseases require social contact in order to spread.

We lived through 2020. I think that fucking dead deer is unethical, for the same reason that not getting vaccinated and not quarantining is unethical. It is a hazard to yourself AND others.

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[–] flamingos@feddit.uk 11 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

Does this logic also apply to human corpses? Like if I go to a morgue…

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[–] 5ha99y@lemmus.org 8 points 3 weeks ago

Green is fucking a dead animal afterwards, because it fits greys explanation and is the morally allowed one. That's why green explicitely needs to msntion that they are proud.

[–] WorldsDumbestMan@lemmy.today 8 points 2 weeks ago (5 children)

Instead of having to contemplate about fucking some poor, deceased deer...how about I dress up as a deer, and you all fuck me instead?

It's more ethical that way.

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[–] BladeFederation@piefed.social 8 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

I'm going to take this shit post seriously for some reason. Sometimes people confuse morality with practicality. Or associate groas factor with immorality, or even things associated with something gross with immorality. Yet, they are all related for a reason.

We have an inherent revulsion to fucking dead bodies. This is because dead things spread diseases, and therefore we instinctually avoid it. Also culturally it is disrespectful and gross. Practically, it is best to decide as a society to not allow that, and shun people who do it. If you practice safe sex with the corpse, and nobody legitimately knows or is hurt by this action, is it morally acceptable? Maybe, but what are truly the chances of a freak who would fuck a corpse wearing a condom because he's concerned for future sexual partners? If he is a necrophiliac, what are the chances that this wouldn't extend to killing to achieve this, or stealing bodies, which would be traumatic for the people related to the people whose bodies he acquired? If he is wired differently and doesn't get this ick factor from fucking dead things the way regular humans do, either his brain is a little messed up, he has gone through some traumatic, personality changing experiences, or he has specifically sought our to desensitize himself from shame. Do you want to trust such a person in society? Or should we perhaps correct deviant behaviors before they become a problem? There's a lot more context than a specific example in a vacuum.

Incidentally, this is what some people don't get about pedophilia/related philias. An ex girlfriend of mine once had a discussion with me that people were obsessed with condemning age gaps online. While true, I didn't agree with her because she went on to say "when I was a teenager, I remember going to a concert for my favorite band and wishing I could fuck the lead singer. If that had happened, I would have been happy and still talk about it today, not yap about how it was abuse." And yeah, maybe, in that instance, it would have been fine. Or maybe he would have pulled a Steve Tyler and became her legal guardian so he could fuck her all the time and been abusive and controlling, and derailed her future by taking her out of school and on tour with him and getting her pregnant then leaving. Is it POSSIBLE to have someone underage consent? Maybe (and a big maybe at that) but really what are the chances that it is a completely healthy and fulfilling relationship that will be positive for both people in the long run? Stigmatizing inappropriate age gap relationships only benefits society. 18 is an arbitrary line, to be sure. Is 17 or 16 OK? Multiple developed countries think so. 15? Not so sure, maybe focus on the actual size of the age gap there, which most countries do. But at some point we have to draw the line as a society to just say "no, sexual activity with this child is not allowed" to not allow for abuse of trust, because kids don't know what is best for them and what they want yet. And is it then morally wrong to violate what society has decided the arbitrary line is? Yes, at least in most cases. Legal does not mean moral, but to completely disregard society is not a way humans are meant to live. So are you going to be a normal guy that can take the "hit" of not dating under 18, or are you going to be the creep flirting with high schoolers and yapping about Romeo and Juliet laws?

This nuance is hard for people to understand. Even in organized religion, where God presumably has all the "right" answers, there is not always an absolute answer. In Christianity for example, Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 10 to avoid practices that make others uncomfortable or more likely to hurt their conscience, even if God doesn't specifically condemn said practice, and to avoid flexing your "rights" on others if it bothers them. "All things are lawful but not all things are helpful." Mysteriously, this part of the bible tends to not be remembered, and religious people instead veer towards absolutism.

[–] JackFrostNCola@aussie.zone 7 points 3 weeks ago

I feel like im having a stroke deciphering those messages in grey.

[–] groet@feddit.org 7 points 3 weeks ago
  1. If you find the dead deer and had no influence in any way on its death, fucking it is moral (or not immoral)
  2. If you killed the deer (accidentally) it is only moral to fuck the deer if you are a person that wouldn't fuck a dead deer. Because if you are, you were subconsciously less likely to avoid killing the deer.
[–] Hueristic_Autistic@lemmy.world 7 points 3 weeks ago (6 children)

Well if you ask that to an atheist than because there’s no god that moral injustice no longer exists because an atheist sees that moral injustice as a religious moral injustice that only God believers see. The religious moral injustice being disrespecting life after death.

☝🏻 However, anyone sane would see an animal alive or dead and know that it’s wrong to fuck an animal.

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