Graeber had a bit in Bullshit Jobs about how the more societally necessicary or directly helpful a job is, the worse the pay is generally. Teachers, Firefighters, ect. He posited it was because subconciously in an time with so many meaningless or actively alienating jobs, to have a career that has a visible impact on the world is considered part of the pay package.
I know its not really an answer to your question, but I work in public service and i think about that a lot.
i'd say cleaner/janitor/garbage collectors are the perfect example tbh
without those we'd all be dying of disease and they are some of the worst paying and looked down upon jobs
He uses striking bankers vs trash collectors in the book as an example. Banker strike went on for weeks and people were trading checks like paper currency while the sanitation worker strike lasted 5 days after the city was swimming in garbage
Similar in private sector stuff too.
I work for a firm that does wastewater, community water treatment, and storm water.
There isn't a lot of money in it because treating wastewater better doesn't provide more value to the company, they just have to hit a minimum standard to be able to operate.
We just make sure people have clean drinking water and that people aren't polluting natural waterbodies which doesn't generate profit so everybody up to the owner of the firm makes less money than my buddy who's a rep for a major beer company so he goes to different bars and buys people drinks all day.
I remember some lolbert saying that people needed to own rivers and bodies of waters otherwise the market would never be able to recognize the need to keep water clean. It was as if I could no longer listen to any other argument they had in good faith, as if I were launched out of the dream of entertaining their POV
There's some pretty notable exceptions to that, medical specialists and some engineering disciplines get paid a lot because they're hard careers with very real demand. Not all engineering disciplines, of course, but nuclear engineers, chemical engineers, etc.
Even then though, I’d argue nuclear engineers are the least necessary type of engineer, but they get paid the highest. Civil engineers are the most necessary, and make the least money.
Same goes for doctors, GPs are more important than other types of doctors and make far less than others
Kinda depends on how you quantify how much they're needed. Yes, civil engineers are necessary for every single state project ever, while a nuclear engineer is highly specialized, but I'd argue the nuclear engineers working on ITER and on safer, more affordable fission power have some of the most important jobs on earth. Maybe my point falls flat a bit since there also are lots of civil engineers working on those projects, though. It's a bit harder to make that point for a neurosurgeon vs a GP because a GP does straight up save more lives than a neurosurgeon, and it's not like the value of a life is proportional to how difficult it is to perform the surgery procedure that would save it.
The example used in Bullshit Jobs is nurses vs doctors. Nurses do much more work but are paid significantly less. I'm sure there are areas where doctors are more specialized, however I've heard plenty of stories of nurses catching potentially lethal mistakes by doctors. Either way, the medical field needs more people so the end of overworking can stop these mistakes and improve patient care
I'm making a career move from bullshit tech sales to engineering. My prospects with a sought after degree from a highly ranked program pay what I made in my first year of tech sales without a degree or requirements to get licensed to eventually stamp plans that make me legally responsible for failures. End of career pay is about a quarter of what end of career pay in tech sales was. It's absurd
He posited it was because subconciously in an time with so many meaningless or actively alienating jobs, to have a career that has a visible impact on the world is considered part of the pay package
oh my god 
i thought Graeber was some sort of marxist based on the amount people bring him up
He is, read Toward an Anthropological Theory of Value.
This analysis isn't wrong, it's just partial. There's stuff like labor exploitation, gendered hyperexploitation, etc. But there's also something where desirable jobs have less bargaining power because the labor pool is flooded (Firefighters are an example of this). Graeber's argument is a non-structural articulation of the same phenomena. In the case of teachers, the amount we pay them is very much a decision made fairly arbitrarily. It's mostly a matter of public investment, the decisions around which are massively over-determined to the point where you do have to talk about things like subconscious decision-making and cultural values.
If your issue is with taking the subconscious into account in your analysis, then you're putting yourself in opposition to incredibly influential Marxists like Adorno.
but are the material considerations of systems of exploitation not more pressing? it just seems silly to be talking about subconsciousnesses when everything you said (and i'd tack on the capitalists' control over bourgeois government) is so much more salient
e: but yeah you got me, it isn't inherently marxian or not to talk about psychology shit.
I agree, they are, but Graeber's the type of dude to prioritize making a playful argument over making a rigorous one. Debt has a whole chapter arguing that Muslim banking is better than European Banking because it obeys Abrahamic usury laws. He then included a footnote basically saying "I know it's still capitalist, I mostly wrote this chapter to troll evangelicals."
Like, he has brilliant insights, but not necessarily brilliant analysis. Take him as a supplement to your theory, not your main meal.
lmao he sounds like a fun read. i might do him eventually but i want a stronger sense of theoretical standards around those subject matters beforehand. i don't want him to be the only one telling me how ancient banking worked
Take him as a supplement to your theory, not your main meal
uhhhhhhhhh yeah can i get a Mao sandwich hold the Deng, with some of those Graeber fries? and some Villa dip on the side please 
can i get a Mao sandwich hold the Deng, with some of those Graeber fries
Throw in the Situationist International and Midnight Notes and this is just my politics
IME, he's solid on the anthropology, so he can be your guy on ancient baking. Just don't let him be your guy on revolution.
Graeber had an effective way with his words.
I've adopted many of his arguments to verbalize the irreformable nature of capitalism, as a funnel toward more fundamental theory.
I bailed on the 9-5 I guess about 15 years ago or so now, went nomadic and basically just been plucking along by the seat of my pants, sometimes I got lucky and made thousands in a week, sometimes I lived in a tent for months in the woods. Things got thrown off when I had to become a caregiver for my family but I'm kinda trying to get back to all that. But if I were to do it again back at that age, I'd go the American Beauty route for a while, find some job that pays your bills with set hours you can leave at the door, and then spend your free time helping people. Because I'm gonna be totally real, the one thing I'm sure of is that if you try and work within the system with an NGO or whatever, you're still not gonna make that big of a difference. The system is designed to prevent that. I can't tell you how many stories I've heard of people who signed up with an org and realized they wasted years of their lives. If you've got skills in the tech world, hone them, hide them, and make sure nothing gets traced back to you. 
I could absolutely stand to be learning new tech skills, even if I already know i don't gave the brain for learning to code. Appreciate your story!
Public utilities / municipalities work for city. They have a number of positions that require everything from maintenance to IT to secretary to operational to management. Lots of non political jobs that directly help and benefit people who live in your communuty. Maybe not the top top pay, but typically recession resistant, union, and competitive benifets.
Seconding this with all much emphasis as I can muster.
Many cities/counties have homeless services positions that involve working directly with homeless populations and connecting them to services (subsidized housing, job training, medical care, etc). There are grant administrators who learn the rules of unlocking govt money and distributing it to the needy.
Hadn't thought of that, but great idea! Thanks!
I’ve about reached this point as well :/
Slowly learning that the org I’ve been volunteering for isn’t helping anyone whatsoever and knowing my current job does nothing but enrich shareholders to keep the wheels of capitalism churning eats away at me every day
Good news is we’re not alone I suppose
If money isn't too pressing for you, I recommend pursuing a janitorial role in a school and trying to get a role as a paraeducator from there.
I was previously an engineer and was able to become an educator without having to go back to school.
Thats awesome! Sounds like a similar style move would be something I could shoot for in a few years when im more stable.
There's always the nonprofit sector. It felt good I owing that whatever work I did would trickle into helping vulnerable people, no matter how little the work was.
Trouble is the serious downturn in the industry thanks to higher interest rates and stingier donors, so lots of people got laid off (like me) and there's not as much hiring going on. Thanks JPow!!
I've been checking this job board for tech nonprofit listings, which given your SaaS background might have something for ya
Thanks much! Bookmarking that link. Appreciate the thoughtful response!
Np gamer 😎👍
This may steer too much towards the sobering/pessimistic than what you asked for but I found it quite clarifying (tldr: it’s hard, chances for impact are low, your own ego will get in the way, do your best and pray): https://berthub.eu/articles/posts/on-being-useful/
All sorts of advice appreciated, thanks for the link!
I gave up on a dream of fancy credentialed STEM careers, though much of this involved getting used to living on less than $10k a year (adjusting for a more expensive city, less than 20k).
I think you've seen me whine about my work enough to know my feelings on offices and meaningless jobs, but I've also hit the burnout point in every line of work I've ever engaged in and I don't want to end up that way with compassion.
So I guess my advice here is to keep an open mind as to what "helping people" means. Think about what you're good at and where it might be put to use in your community. You could take a part-time job stocking shelves at a grocery store, for instance, and while it's maybe not the direct action that you're looking for, people need to eat and you need a paycheck. It doesn't have to be your identity - just the thing you're doing right now to get by without hurting anyone while you figure things out.
This is more or less my plan now that we've finally got some savings. I'm hoping that without the shame of office life weighing me down, I'll feel a little more free to contribute outside of work?
Thank you for the reflections! Think I need to maybe have some dialogues with myself and see where my skills would be.
And good luck to you on your journey! Hope you're able to find what it is you're ultimately looking for!
As someone who works in a similar tech field, also has big debts to clear, and would rather do something sustainable that helps others, I.. dunno. I guess I just relate.
I used to work for a state hospital, and for a governmental medicine research facility, but both of them collaborated and took funding from (and obviously consequently gave profits to) private companies so heavily at every step, any extra value I made (at least in my specific job positions) just went straight to supporting the profit of shareholders and the monopoly of big pharma companies, and the public/sick/those in need wouldn't feel one ounce of the positive impact...
Give me your answers when you find them.
I'm a teacher and you can too! I've been doing it for quite a while, but it's a common career for people who've decided to make a change. I work with a lot of people who came to it as a second career. Of course it really depends on where you live and your temperment whether it's a good idea
I do have a bit of very casual teaching experience (taught little kids how to sail small boats for a few summers). Thanks for the idea! Unfortunately, my city's public school system is used as a notorious example of declining education standards in the news. I'd need to have a lot of long conversations with people who are currently in that environment
Yeah, even though I basically like my job it's hard to recommend given that the experience can vary so drastically
Slamming a fork and knife against the table
Mr ~~Robot~~ Corgibot
Mr ~~Robot~~ Corgibot
Real advice: Discern the type of charity/directly helping people that makes that dopamine hit for you and makes life satisfying.
For me, it’s homeless outreach. I don’t have a solid skill set so I just ask them if I can do anything to help.
If you ended up at a similar sentiment: maybe you could make an app or something that makes it easier to coordinate homeless outreach.
In modern society being a tech person has a lot of potential, find a charity that really makes you feel good to help and work backwards to where you’re at right now.
Dune style find that golden path.
Right on! I do a lot of food distribution offline, so that might be the first thing I talk to. I know there are tons of organizations since I'm fortunate enough to be located in a major major US city (yall know which), so thats a great idea!
Were you working remotely or did they force you into the office? I was kinda miserable when I had to go to the office but since they let me stay at home I've been much happier everyday
I only went in on Wednesdays last job. Fuck an office, I never wanna go back to one, but overall that only does so much for me, ya know?
(someone is checking my place out this month, so that might happen in January for me)
Did you take down the mao portrait?
I work in homeless shelters. It's union work, lived experience with homelessness or recovery is worth more than a degree, and there are lots of cool leftists in this field. We aren't solving the problem but we're doing good work.
The pay is...okay. Some agencies pay better than others, and some shelters are easier to work than others. It varies so much. I started working night shifts 6 years ago when I needed a job in a new city, and I couldn't imagine doing anything else now. I've worked everything from part time overnights, to managing programs, low-barrier, clean-and-sober, DV, all sorts of background roles if anyone has questions about the work or is looking for a career change.
So I know that you've been through rehab and it's hard to imagine a person who has done rehab who doesn't experience mental illness alongside it. (Yes, there are unicorns but unicorns are rare.)
My advice to you would be to pursue peer work jobs.
You might be able to do peer work in the evenings or on the weekend voluntarily or perhaps in a paid position (generally speaking peer work roles aren't high paying.)
Keep your current profession for the time being, get into peer work to scratch that itch and in doing so set yourself up for getting paid peer work jobs or beginning to climb the ladder with middle-management peer work jobs as they occasionally emerge by building your experience and your CV. While you're doing that, if you are capable of taking on more, try doing a bit of correspondence learning to work on a qualification as a social worker.
Of all the qualifications, a social worker has a lot of lateral mobility and generally a lot more scope for helping people than most jobs.
by playing minecraft for as long as possible
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