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submitted 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) by ashinadash@hexbear.net to c/traaaaaaannnnnnnnnns@hexbear.net

Look right, I like a lot of things about the foundational 2007 text Whipping Girl by Julia Serano. But if you've ever been told to read this book without any qualifiers, I'd like to apologise on behalf of the trans community.

lenin-tea

Obviously the concepts of traditional and oppositional sexism, the idea of transmisogyny, Serano's analysis of media depictions of trans women, and more are all superb and well worthy of praise. However, Serano is a land of contrasts, as AcidSmiley so concisely put it. She's read both Leslie Feinberg and Kate Bornstein's works, and writes this extremely salient quote:

We must also stop pretending that there are essential differences between women and men. This begins with the acknowledgement that there are exceptions to every gender rule and stereotype, and this simply stated fact disproves all gender theories that purport that female and male are mutually exclusive categories.

Despite all that, Serano has a perspective that's utterly mired in exorsexist* binary-only assumptions, with language to match. On own, describing someone taking estrogen as "hormonally female" or her body prior to hormone replacement therapy as "physically male" would be unpleasantly cisnormative, but just that. I respect fully that the intent of this book is to analyse the ins and outs of being trans in the gender binary, and so the text is focused in that direction. When Serano writes goofy shit like "mtf spectrum" though, you wonder if she wouldn't be better served by thinking a little outside of the two-genders box.

She doesn't want to, though; Julia Serano circa 2007 (the text has not been meaningfully updated to my knowledge) is a brave warrior going against the grain of non binary domination :citation to defend our poor, repressed binary genders. She's taking down those woke non-binary moralists from their ivory towers:

There are many different (but often overlapping) forms of gender entitlement and gender anxiety. For example, one of the most frequently discussed forms of gender entitlement is heterosexism, the belief that heterosexuality is the only "natural," legitimate, or morally acceptable form of sexual desire. Heterosexist gender entitlement ean lead to homophobia, which is an expression of gender anxiety directed against those people who engage in same-sex relationships. Similarly, the gender-entitled belief that all women are (or should be) feminine and men masculine-which some have called cisgenderism-gives rise to transphobia, a gender anxiety that is directed against people who fall outside of those norms. While homophobia and transphobia have both received mainstream attention, thinking in terms of gender entitlement and gender anxiety also allows us to consider less well- known (but just as disparaging) forms of gender and sexual discrimination. For example, many gays and lesbians who believe that all people are "naturally" either homosexual or heterosexual often express biphobia, a gender anxiety directed toward bisexual people because they challenge the presumption that people can only be attracted to one sex or the other. I have also met some people in the transgender community who feel that identifying outside of the male/female binary is superior to, or more enlightened than, identifying within it. Such people often express gender anxiety (binary- phobia?) at people who identify strongly as either female or male.

I would be laughing if I weren't actually really mad about this classic, foundational transfeminist text featuring tons of brainworms about anyone outside the binary. It's a punchline, the phrase "binary-phobia" is perfect to sit right next to "heterophobia" or "cisphobia". It's right up there alongside white westerners claiming to be victims of racism when someone calls them a cracker, even. It should be plainly self-evident how ridiculous a claim this is. I want to ask Serano circa 2007 to tell me which genders have legal recognition - binary or non-binary ones?

It is truly incredible that a woman can write so sharply about the cultural/societal hedgemony of cis gender and heterosexuality, about how the concept of anything being inherently gendered is antithetical to feminism, and then turn around and write a deeply unserious aside about how non-binary people are apparently smug moralists commiting discrimination against people of binary gender due to the same gender anxiety**--in itself a smart concept about how queer people disrupt assumed gender/sexual normality--that drives cis people to be transphobes!! I am for real left somewhat speechless.

I don't think Whipping Girl is a book nobody should read, obviously. But I scoured the bearsite to see if anyone had dome criticism of or even qualified their recommendation of Whipping Girl, and I found nothing. Part of me wonders if anyone has made a concerted criticism of this book before, but surely someone has before me. I yap exclusively for your benefit! I wonder if Sexed Up or Excluded are better, but frankly I'm just disappointed and angry. Truly a joke.

--

*Exorsexist, I learned today, is discrimination against people outside the gender binary!

**Serano describes gender anxiety as "the act of becoming irrationally upset or being made uncomfortable by the existence of those people who challenge or bring into question one's gender entitlement." In turn, she describes gender entitlement being "an arrogant conviction that one's own beliefs, perceptions, and assumptions regarding gender and sexuality are more valid than those of other people". She is more or less insinuating that non-binary people are befuddled supremacists who cannot stand... adherence to the gender binary. Cool.

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[-] sneak100@hexbear.net 2 points 2 days ago
[-] Angel@hexbear.net 29 points 1 week ago
[-] magi@hexbear.net 18 points 1 week ago

I'm saving this squirtle-jam

[-] HelltakerHomosexual@hexbear.net 11 points 1 week ago

thanos if they were based

[-] grym@hexbear.net 24 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Seeing stuff like this and some of the discourse/responses around it reminds me that I should really do an effort-post about baeddelism and all the fucking "tma/tme" brainworms that emerge from this new kind of terf rethoric, a lot of it tends to (badly) quote serano and misuse the concept of transmisogyny. Its already destroyed large parts of transfem tumblr and is doing enormous harm to many transmasc and enby friends.

I'm extremely worried about this shit spreading here, I'm already seeing the milder variants of that rethoric spread.

(For context, a decent primer on the insidious reaction that is baeddelism : https://www.tumblr.com/nothorses/743139329546846208/lets-talk-about-baeddels)

[-] imogen_underscore@hexbear.net 16 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

this is wild wtf. maybe the internet was a mistake... this borders on feeling like some kind of op to mislead and fragment the young queer community. cynical isn't a strong enough word.

[-] ashinadash@hexbear.net 12 points 1 week ago

Babe wake up, new cointelpro just dropped!!

To be real though probably 50% of tumblr posts felt like that

[-] imogen_underscore@hexbear.net 12 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

lmao. yeah, i was always just a tumblr orbiter never really waded in or even had an account back in the day, but i have developed that impression over the years. you're gonna find dogshit takes wherever you go online i guess and some site algorithms just reward being really incendiary/"controversial". think twitter is def like this too.

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[-] EelBolshevikism@hexbear.net 16 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

ew wtf this "baeddelism" is some revisionist stuff. serano's primary argument was that transphobia etc stems from misogyny, and she coined transmisogyny specifically to refer to the way that misogyny informs transphobia. Misogyny affects trans men and non-binary people just as much as trans women and to imply they're "exempt" from it is simply absurd shit. Sure they're "trans misogyny exempt" because they're not trans women so it doesn't take the form of being transphobic towards trans women but it still stems from misogyny and is therefore just as serious and comes from the same root phenomenon. This is like using Marx to shit on disabled people tier shit.

Edit: https://miraclemaya.tumblr.com/post/729033297565483008#notes apparently some of the sources (of the post you linked) are outright TERF blogs. But I also feel like most of what it says is genuine. Idk this entire subject is fucking terrifying. I feel sick

edit: the comprehensive post about baedellism (and it's problematic nature) removed the weird terf source, i think they noticed it was gross and erased it from existence as it should be

[-] sneak100@hexbear.net 2 points 2 days ago

This is like using Marx to shit on disabled people tier shit.

I wish this was a completely made up scenario in my head this-is-fine

[-] PapaEmeritusIII@hexbear.net 10 points 1 week ago

Linking to my megathread comment RE: terf sources in the baeddel post, for anyone reading this thread: https://hexbear.net/comment/5535857

TL;DR The version of the baeddel post that has the terf source is from two years ago. The version posted by comrade grym is an updated version from this year, which does not have the terf source (unless I missed it somewhere).

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[-] starkillerfish@hexbear.net 14 points 1 week ago

ive been encountering it / thinking about it lately. would really appreciate an effort post

[-] ashinadash@hexbear.net 14 points 1 week ago

lea-tired they fr reinvented every bad feminist idea fron the last 50 years, but for trans women

[-] ashinadash@hexbear.net 13 points 1 week ago

Please do, I'll read the hell out of that post. I hadn't seen it on the bearsite so foolishly I figured it may be safe to post...

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[-] 389aaa@hexbear.net 20 points 1 week ago

I do agree that Serano's work is generally mired in exorsexist assumptions, yes, but I don't actually have that much of an issue with the passage you quote? While the phrase 'binary phobia' is obviously absurd, I have myself met people who genuinely believed that being non-binary was somehow superior to or more enlightened than having a binary gender. It might be less common now than it was when I first started transitioning about 8 years ago, but this is absolutely a current of thought that exists within the trans community, largely, in my experience, among TME non-binary people.

I myself used to hold this view, in fact! It was something that was directed at me a lot early in my transition, and I internalized the idea that 'binary trans women' (and it was always trans women, nobody ever directed this shit at trans men in my experience) were somehow 'reinforcing the binary' and were ultimately obstacles to the cause of 'gender abolition'. Being a trans woman myself, internalizing this idea did me a lot of harm - it took me 7 years to actually start presenting femininely because of it, because I was so convinced that if I did so, I would be acting in an immoral manner by way of reinforcing the gender binary, and so I forced myself to present in a masculine or neutral manner even though I didn't actually want that, and even though doing so actively mentally hurt me. Indeed, this sort of thought was likely a large contributor to the 2 years in which I de-transitioned.

The idea Serano describes here, even if her wording is awful, absolutely does exist in the trans community - I would classify it mostly as one of the forms of intracommunity transmisogyny as this sort of thought does seem to be largely directed at 'binary trans women' specifically. Obviously as a problem it is not at all comparable in scale to homophobia or transphobia, but it absolutely does exist - to characterize non-binary people as being privileged because of this current of thought is, however, ridiculous, yes. In actuality I would say that this stuff is just a manifestation of transmisogyny, a manifestation of the contextual privilege held by TME people within the trans community.

[-] Angel@hexbear.net 15 points 1 week ago

I have, on very rare occasions, seen the "being binary trans reinforces the oppressive forces of the gender binary" take before, so I don't entirely doubt what you're saying. However, at this point and from what I know, I found that internalizing the transmedicalist and truscum brainworms that plague the trans community even more harshly than this fringe you're concerned about is what prevented me from being myself.

Gender abolitionism gets strawmanned a ton. Yes, there are TERFs who do reactionary co-opting of the concept, but most non-binary/trans people you interact with who believe in gender abolitionism are not trying to demonize those who identify with being a binary trans person.

I am transfeminine myself, so this may differ from what you have to say about "TME non-binary people," but I find that the transmedicalist brainworms that harmed me so damn much and led me down the harshest path of internalized transphobia, as I was already facing a shitton of other kinds of discrimination and hardship, were practically evenly perpetuated by both truscummy trans men and trans women.

My problem has never been with those of binary identities; it has been with those who need to cling onto some sense of hierarchical domination, so they place enbies beneath them as a way to feel like they're not the same brand of the "lowest of the low" in society. Enbies are even much less understood than binary trans people, so there are definitely more enbies being harmed by this kind of stuff than one would be harmed by the supposed inverse "enby supremacy" ideology you're hinting at here.

Most people, even a lot of trans people, have not freed themselves of their binarist brainworms. The amount of times I'd chat with a trans person online who cannot anonymously pick up on my assigned sex and have them ask, "Are you MTF or FTM?" not even including NB as a possibility in this question (that they don't even need to ask in the first place) is astronomical. Most cis people and a not so insignificant amount of binary trans people see non-binary people as an afterthought to performatively support in the back of their heads, and those who never learn how to stop the support from being performative will still have those enbyphobic brainworms that are kept alive in both trans spaces and the wider society until they get proper insight and theory into how being trans, binary or non-binary, all undermines the patriarchal, cisheteronormative system in the exact same way.

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[-] ashinadash@hexbear.net 13 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

have myself met people who genuinely believed that being non-binary was somehow superior to or more enlightened than having a binary gender.

~~Can I ask, sincerely and genuinely, why you care?~~ Sorry I can see now. So more pointedly, why Serano was so very miffed about just such an encounter that she felt it right to enshrine her being mad in a book? She doesn't seem to be in your position.

largely, in my experience, among TME non-binary people.

Wowee, didn't take long for this to come out...

internalized the idea that 'binary trans women' (and it was always trans women, nobody ever directed this shit at trans men in my experience) were somehow 'reinforcing the binary' and were ultimately obstacles to the cause of 'gender abolition'.

I'm sorry you had that experience. Anyone who has used non-binary identities in this way is a reactionary hiding behind Gender Accelerationist language as a fig leaf. Neither the Gender Accelerationist Manifesto nor the 2016 revision of Gender Outlaw support this viewpoint. See also, the "you can still be a baker" passage of the Gender Accelerationst Manifesto.

In actuality I would say that this stuff is just a manifestation of transmisogyny,

Right, I agree. It sounds unsurprisingly like reductive so-called "gender abolitionist" terfs who want to abolish gender by reducing it to assigned sex. One wonders if these people are wreckers, or indeed why "TME people" are being singled out for it.

[-] 389aaa@hexbear.net 10 points 1 week ago

I would say that the reason I care is fairly simple? The existence of this current of thought and it's advocacy by the individuals I mentioned did me significant psychological harm. It is only natural that I would care given that is the case.

And yes the similarity to TERF ideology is obvious, and I am aware that the Gender Accelerationist Manifesto does not advocate for this - I don't think the people in question were wreckers however, they had quite open public histories of having been trans for years. And I am not trying to 'single out' TME people - I am genuinely just describing what I saw in my experience using the most precise terms available to me, given I characterize the current of thought we are discussing as being a manifestation of transmisogyny, I thought it would be relevant to mention in this instance, that is all.

[-] ashinadash@hexbear.net 11 points 1 week ago

Yes, I edited that line in my reply, mistake on my part.

given I characterize the current of thought we are discussing as being a manifestation of transmisogyny, I thought it would be relevant to mention in this instance, that is all.

Terfs are also "transmisogyny exempt" strictly speaking. I tend to agree with a post I saw earlier today on the subject:

Quote

Honestly, (trans)misogynistic transmascs are a pain in the ass, but in the end they're just incel ideologues or liberal chauvinists like any other masc person with problematic views, and the reason is largely the same, they latch onto male privilege to lord it over women. As people navigating a masc-aligned gender role, they intuitively get how to center yourself in conversations, how to silence women and how to be a petty, power-grabbing piece of shit in general, because our society provides ample role models, material and ideological incentives and culturally ingrained leeway for that. It has to to maintain patriarchal property and power relations. Trans men are men and sometimes, some of them are men in the worst ways possible, it comes with the territory when you live in a society that enables male violence in all kinds of ways.

The main difference is that they are people i run into in supposed safer spaces, but it never sat well with me to give them their own trans-specific label, i honestly don't think these dinguses deserve it. They're just misogynist swine like all the other misogynist swine. And i wouldn't say that all transmasculine people are united by a shared lived experience of not experiencing what i go through, trans experiences are a bit too diverse for that. I get a feeling that there's a neo-binarist essentialism to the TME and TMA labels, and i do not use them when calling out (trans)misogyny. I do that a lot, i had to do that with somebody in a trans space just yesterday, but i did not need to call dem TME for that. If i needed an expression for that person, i would go with transmisogynist, joyless pile of spite and insecurity, that seems more fitting than TME.

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[-] imogen_underscore@hexbear.net 13 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

yeah, placing it in a list alongside homophobia, transphobia and biphobia is patently ridiculous

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[-] WalrusDragonOnABike@lemmy.today 19 points 1 week ago

spoiler from ch 20Have you got to the part where Julia just says non-binary people are creating their own binary?

It is sadly ironic that people who claim to be gender-fucking in the name of “shattering the gender binary,” and who criticize people whose identities fail to adequately challenge our societal notions of femaleness and maleness, cannot see that they have just created a new gender binary, one in which subversive genders are “good” and conservative genders are “bad.”

Don't get how someone who seems to think a lot about things these could write something like that unironically...

[-] ashinadash@hexbear.net 14 points 1 week ago

madeline-deadpan

You are telling me two things:

one, that every possible worst-case assumption I could have made about this book is true and more,

two, this fucking shitass jokebook has been paraded around and used to bully cishets withput criticism on this site? for years?

[-] WalrusDragonOnABike@lemmy.today 16 points 1 week ago

I've certainly got the idea that it might be a bit... uhh... "dated?"... from some people's comments about it on here, so I don't think its totally without criticism. But idr details.

But given the reputation, perhaps others felt like me about it, thinking maybe we're the ones missing something given the praise it gets.

[-] ashinadash@hexbear.net 11 points 1 week ago

It has many praiseworthy elements I would agree, but this is basically like, the worst possible characterisation of the text is the actual truth. Blegh.

[-] rtstragedy@hexbear.net 9 points 1 week ago

I stopped at chapter 17, jeez good thing... all non-assigned-at-birth genders are subversive, right? Wasn't that the point of the section of the GAM about trans people being revolutionary even if they are binary-identified?

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[-] Dessa@hexbear.net 17 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

I feel like this was more relevant 20 years ago, when the lines of conflict were very different. There was plenty of lit I could at the time really did put forth the notion that the binary was an antiquated concept that needed to go, and that transgressing the boundary was how you broke the gender hegemony. Some people ran with this and accused binary trans people of more-or-less playing at respectability politics by attempting to appeal to mainstream sensibilities.

These days, that position is downright archaic. At the time, nonbinary people and non-passing trans people were in the same boat in terms of general acceptance, so there wasnt quite the privilege gap that there is today, and as a result, I feel like this wasn't "kicking down" the same as it would be today.

It definitely shpuld be removed or revised though. This is an academic book, and it warrants updates that keep it in tune with the times

[-] EelBolshevikism@hexbear.net 14 points 1 week ago

i agree with this completely including the fact it should be changed. her foreword isn't enough and without the context it's really bad, which means it's really bad when read as theory applicable to current times

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[-] imogen_underscore@hexbear.net 13 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

GOOD post never read the book the worst thing I've heard about it is that it's "somewhat dated" but some of this stuff is real bad and I'm glad you took the time to write up some critique! you're so right as usual order-of-lenin

edit i think i understand the context fairly well, but the framing is asinine even for the time and worthy of critique, of course Serano is someone i am willing to give some leeway to but this does read as enbyphobic and should be revised. i think ash has done a good job of that critique here.

[-] ashinadash@hexbear.net 10 points 1 week ago

I was appalled to see absolutely no critique or discussion of this anywhere on the bearsite. Thank you! doggirl-thumbsup

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[-] AcidSmiley@hexbear.net 13 points 1 week ago

The entire quoted paragraph before the last two sentences would have been a perfect leadup to call out transmedicalism, an ideology which absolutely shows both gender entitlement and gender anxiety in spades. Even with the context other users have provided itt, even assuming that Serano has had actual run-ins with hostile nonbinary people and even generously assuming these people actually called her out for binary transness and not for something else, providing this example for gender anxiety within trans communities instead of identifying truscum ideology as the prevalent example for this is at the very least completely missing the mark and at worst a severe act of projecting her own gender anxiety on others.

That does not mean i am calling Serano out for being a dyed-in-the-wool transmedicalist, nothing indicates to me that she is. But the time she transitioned in means that she has spent her formative years in trans communities in an environment that only just began challenging ideas that had long been taken for granted, such as a deeply negative view of transness that was centered on suffering and pathologization, harsh passing dictates and a strong binary- and heteronormativity. That does by not mean one should not engage with texts from that chapter of trans history, but it does mean that they should be read with an awareness of such undercurrents.

[-] ashinadash@hexbear.net 11 points 1 week ago

Good summary of the issue, thank you. I guess the whole point of my posting this is "they should be read with an awareness of such undercurrents". Never once seen criticism of this book (other than what bestmiaou just linked) and instead seen it thrown at people totally uncritically. It's kind of worrying to me that hexbear has been recommending a book that contains stuff like the quoted passage (as well as "inventing a new binary haha!!!!") at clueless cis people, even.

[-] Ambii@hexbear.net 12 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

https://hexbear.net/comment/4794499

You and I actually had a short back and forth about this issue with the book a few months ago.

To be completely honest I'm still very conflicted about the entire chapter regarding subversivism.

I really feel it was a mistake for her to not at least revise this chapter to give it the cultural context it needs.

[-] ashinadash@hexbear.net 11 points 1 week ago

Actually thinking about it, "subversivism" reminds me almost one for one of a famous Sheila Jeffreys terf quote about "men always being privileged to do transgression" and such. Does seem that going against the status quo is very upsetting to some people.

Serano seems resistant to revising the book literally at all though, "major themes just as vital and relevant today". Decide if "binary-phobia" is included.

[-] D61@hexbear.net 12 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

I have also met some people in the transgender community who feel that identifying outside of the male/female binary is superior to, or more enlightened than, identifying within it. Such people often express gender anxiety (binary- phobia?) at people who identify strongly as either female or male.

Am I the only person who read these two sentences and heard this man's voice? live-tucker-reaction

[-] ashinadash@hexbear.net 10 points 1 week ago

tucker-catboy Yes... only you...

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this post was submitted on 22 Oct 2024
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