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[-] jaggedrobotpubes@lemmy.world 239 points 2 months ago

Third parties are mathematically impossible until we ditch first past the post voting:

https://youtu.be/s7tWHJfhiyo

We need our vote to be a list, not a checkbox.

[-] bradinutah@thelemmy.club 45 points 2 months ago

This is the way. It is possible and unlikely to have a third party win under the right conditions, like with how the Republican Party became a national party after Lincoln was elected as a third party candidate. But ultimately there will always only be two parties with the outdated FPTP voting method. If only George Washington knew about and pushed for a better voting system than FPTP.

[-] princessnorah@lemmy.blahaj.zone 22 points 2 months ago

I don't think they really existed yet in his era. You've got to remember that Australia, a much younger country, invented the secret ballot. It was known as the "Australian Ballot" for a long time.

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[-] Aurenkin@sh.itjust.works 22 points 2 months ago

In Australia government funding is distributed to political parties based on the number of first preference votes they get as well so even if your first choice doesn't get in, you still helped them by putting them first.

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[-] PugJesus@lemmy.world 58 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

No, no, THIS time protest-voting to allow fascism will work to usher in a real left-wing movement in this country, promise! /s

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[-] roofuskit@lemmy.world 48 points 2 months ago

But but, building a real third party from the ground up in local elections and/or changing our voting system from first past the post takes a lot of time and real effort. That's a lot of hard work. It's a lot harder than just showing up to one election every 4 years and casting a vote that makes you feel like you're special and smarter than everyone else.

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[-] metaStatic@kbin.earth 46 points 2 months ago

except that you could end up with a 3rd entrance by doing that ... eventually

[-] TachyonTele@lemm.ee 41 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

No you won't.
But if you put the door in while building the house (local and primary elections) you'll have installed it at the right time.

[-] njm1314@lemmy.world 17 points 2 months ago

I think you'd have brain damage way before you get to that point

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[-] LarmyOfLone@lemm.ee 39 points 2 months ago

You'd need to grow the third party / greens by having them become a viable party in local elections and state elections first. The greens have failed to do that. Which means they have no chance except to spoil the election.

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[-] eestileib@sh.itjust.works 39 points 2 months ago

Primary elections are how parties change. Primary elections are how the Republican party became what it is today. They are often the highest-leverage vote you can cast if you're in a solid district.

[-] NuXCOM_90Percent@lemmy.zip 15 points 2 months ago

Yup. People don't realize there is already a not horrible approximation of runoff voting that still avoids the spoiler effect.

And just look at what happened when Sanders realized that. He went from being a meme about how nobody watches C-SPAN to one of the more influential politicians on the Left.

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[-] a9cx34udP4ZZ0@lemmy.world 38 points 2 months ago

"Why would I vote for a primary party candidate who supports ranked choice voting when I can just throw my vote away on a third-party candidate that will never be elected? I've got principles!"

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[-] hakase@lemm.ee 35 points 2 months ago
[-] Blackbeard@lemmy.world 40 points 2 months ago
[-] _thebrain_@sh.itjust.works 16 points 2 months ago

I have high hopes but my logical side says they can just be pandering like any of the other politicians: they know people support it, they know it will fail. They look good for backing it even tho they aren't worried about changing the status quo either

[-] minnow@lemmy.world 37 points 2 months ago

IIRC two states and several major cities have also successfully implemented rank choice, and in every case it's been because of Democrats.

As more and more local governments make the change, it'll become more popular and gain more support on the national level.

[-] Blackbeard@lemmy.world 19 points 2 months ago

Lemmy is such a fickle place. Just a few days ago people were clamoring for Democrats to make a purely performative abortion vote that would be doomed to fail, merely because it would send an important signal to voters. Now people are skeptical that performative signal votes are sincere because they won't go anywhere. Not saying you, specifically, but the whiplash is really frustrating.

Second, sure, it's a low risk bill because they know it won't go anywhere, but damn isn't it good news that somebody is putting their money where their mouth is? Maybe we just need to primary in more Dems who will sign on and help push it through?

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[-] Westdragon@lemmy.world 34 points 2 months ago

Want to build a viable third party for presidential elections? Start small at the city/county level and eventually you will have candidates at the state/federal level. Today's city council is tomorrow's senator/president. Does it really surprise anyone that a relatively unknown and unproven candidate outside of the two major parties doesn't get any traction in a federal election?

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[-] Dagwood222@lemm.ee 33 points 2 months ago

Look up The Moral Majority and Jerry Falwell.

Falwell made himself a big deal in the GOP by getting his troops to show up at every single local Republican event with enough votes to make sure that they got everything they wanted. It started small with sheriffs and county clerks, and then Congress members.

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[-] undergroundoverground@lemmy.world 32 points 2 months ago

If only there was some kind of proven road map where countries who has been dominated by their ruling elite using the two party trick went on to form a kind of labour movement that forced a third choice on the ruling class....

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[-] DavidDoesLemmy@lemmynsfw.com 31 points 2 months ago

Maybe in America. But check other countries. They have preferential voting systems.

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[-] TehWorld@lemmy.world 30 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

I was a proud third party voter for a long time but changed my mind after watching CGPGrey’s video about first past the post. It’s not really ABOUT trying to change minds but FPTP voting rules really do mean that a two party system is bound to very basic human psychology.

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[-] randon31415@lemmy.world 28 points 2 months ago

Some of these third party people could get elected to the senate if they tried, but have to try for the top job with no experience because their ego can't take that they don't know everything.

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[-] Kolanaki@yiffit.net 24 points 2 months ago

If I run hard enough, I'll put a me shaped hole in the wall though.

[-] Stern@lemmy.world 16 points 2 months ago

Okay Wile E. Coyote.

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[-] mlg@lemmy.world 21 points 2 months ago

768 votes wth is wrong with Americans bruh

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan_Tehreek-e-Insaf

If you can create a successful grassroots political party in an environment where your party members and constituents are constantly attacked, murdered, bombed, jailed, tortured, votes faked, votes destroyed, and vote miscounts, you can definitely pull it off in the USA.

It took Pakistan only 20 years to cause a collapse of their corrupt 2 party system and challenge the military dictatorship. People never believed PTI would mount any sort of challenge, but they did by building a solid populist movement, despite facing all of the above.

The "you must vote the lesser evil" is a fallacy that both parties in the USA perpetuate in an attempt to convince you to believe 3rd party voting is a waste of time.

You can't just sit back and complain about the rigged system like "but muh first past the poll voting" as if either Democrats or Republicans will change the system in any way to make it easier for their rivals.

This is exactly why I dislike the Democratic party in particular so much. They are a corporate monolith that pretends to care about your leftist demands by handing out pennies worth of change to get your vote, then the second they refuse to actually significantly change something you demand, they have the audacity to blame you, the voter, for not sucking up to their shitty policies when they inevitably lose the election.

Current case in point: "There is no genocide in Gaza, and we believe we can win without our constituents because our opponent is a mentally insane baby ".

Shittiest take on this community by far.

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[-] Sibbo@sopuli.xyz 20 points 2 months ago

You mean in the USA? I guess the more viable path is to campaign to fix their democracy from within the democratic party. And then make new parties.

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[-] Fidel_Cashflow@lemmy.ml 19 points 2 months ago
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[-] LustyArgonianMana@lemmy.world 16 points 2 months ago

We need to demand approval choice voting. Every time we hear anything about third parties in this country, we need to use it as a launch pad to tall about approval choice voting

[-] AFC1886VCC@reddthat.com 14 points 2 months ago

lemmy.world going hard against third parties over the past few days, what has spooked them?

[-] mholiv@lemmy.world 33 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

The potential of Trump winning. Unless you live outside of the U.S. or are very privileged a Trump victory would only be devastating.

In a first past the post system like the U.S. has, doing anything but voting for Harris is in fact supporting Trump.

CCP Gray actually put out a good video a while ago explaining why voting 3rd party in a FPTP system only hurts your interests.

In a place like Germany where you have proportional voting none of this applies and you should 100% vote for the best party.

https://youtu.be/s7tWHJfhiyo?si=y2NtQ2K6g9GkaNwM

[-] Xtallll@lemmy.blahaj.zone 21 points 2 months ago

Trump winning would have major ramifications for people outside the US also.

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[-] Duamerthrax@lemmy.world 29 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

The primaries are over. The risk of Trump is too high and people spreading 3rd Party ideas right now many be trying to demotivate progressives from voting for Harris. I mean, I'm not a big fan of Harris, but I'll still be voting for her over Trump.

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this post was submitted on 14 Sep 2024
940 points (87.2% liked)

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