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Here’s my two cents. It’s hard for people to keep up with the euphemism treadmill. There was a time when the word “female” didn’t have the negative connotation that it does now mostly thanks to co-opting by incels. It should also be stated that the word “male” doesn’t have the same negative connotations and it’s similar to how there’s slurs for black people but none for white people.

So why do people find “female” offensive? Well for starters it’s dehumanizing. Women is a less academic term and female implies some biological essentialism. I think the crux as to why it’s a big deal now is that women do not refer to themselves as females in the manner that men do. Men do not think of themselves as males, they do not call other men males, men call themselves men. male and female are simply outdated terms.

I suspect one day as society moves towards a more genderqueer position men and women will become unacceptable to say too. Idk. Like I think we need to acknowledge that there is such thing as a euphemism treadmill, that languages change, words become offensive or nonoffensive over time, and like all we can do in order to be a fucking decent human bean is to conform to society’s standards as to what is acceptable as according to the treadmill. Unless it’s some shit like calling the homeless, the unhoused. Then in those specific instances we got to run against the treadmill. But in this specific instance, we need to run with the treadmill on this one. Nothing feels better than conforming with society.

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[-] ReadFanon@hexbear.net 47 points 1 year ago

Pro-tip:

Never correct a person who refers to women as "females"

Don't ever teach misogynists how to refine their language and to develop a more socially-acceptable way of concealing their attitudes.

Let them throw up those red flags immediately so that people can immediately avoid chuds who use this language.

shit like calling the homeless, the unhoused

I have a strong preference for "rough sleepers" because there are people who are in temporary housing, that are couch surfing etc. which don't strictly fit into the term homeless but who experience precarious (and typically inadequate) housing and because some people consider places home, such as their cars (sometimes by preference), and devaluing what a person calls home because it doesn't meet my personal definition of a home is kinda shitty whereas acknowledging that their home may be precarious or inadequate without erasing the fact that it's home to them, I think, is preferable.

/rant

[-] DroneRights@hexbear.net 33 points 1 year ago

Correcting a misogynist is more likely to provoke a visible reaction than ignoring problematic speech. If it isn't corrected, it becomes normal.

[-] ReadFanon@hexbear.net 12 points 1 year ago

I mean, that's kind of the point though.

I think it's preferable that using the term "female" as a noun is normalised among people who see women as objects and that they continue using that term because it's like a klaxon identifying people who are misogynists or who have latent misogynistic beliefs.

If we coach misogynists in ways to conceal their misogyny then it becomes much, much harder to identify them especially in social media spaces.

I'd much rather that these people loudly announce themselves to the people who know better than to blend in with people who are progressive and radical.

Teaching people to adjust their language doesn't change their beliefs.

[-] DroneRights@hexbear.net 21 points 1 year ago

Misogynists have historically held more institutional power than women. We had a time when women knew how to speak inclusively and misogynists didn't, it was called the 1960s. It sucked.

[-] ReadFanon@hexbear.net 13 points 1 year ago

Yeah, I know that those times sucked. But they didn't suck because the people who are oppressing and exploiting us didn't know to couch their language in progressive wording. I think that framing it in that way is a very idealistic take and does a serious disservice to the realities that oppressed groups faced in the 60s because the people who were fighting for better circumstances definitely weren't out on the streets demanding that their oppressors use more polite language while they screw them over.

Take a look at Joe Biden's progressive verbal stance and the virtue-signalling events he holds compared to what he's actually done to protect and defend the rights of trans people as the perfect example of why kind words don't mean shit when you're beneath the jackboot.

Look, you can do whatever you feel is important to you.

Personally I just don't see the value in training misogynists in how to be more effective predators by concealing themselves amongst people of good conscience to be anywhere close to a priority for me. Quite the opposite actually.

[-] WoofWoof91@hexbear.net 25 points 1 year ago

I have a strong preference for "rough sleepers"

it's also what most homeless orgs use here (england)

[-] ReadFanon@hexbear.net 19 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

We've moved away from that here to "unhoused" which is likely politically-motivated to narrow the scope of who faces inadequate and unstable housing to exclusively the people who are out on the streets tonight.

So, y'know, if you've got a couch to crash on for this week then it's basically a screw you: you're totally fine and we're not going to consider you kinda deal.

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[-] smiley@hexbear.net 45 points 1 year ago

There was a time when the word “female” didn’t have the negative connotation that it does now mostly thanks to co-opting by incels.

I feel obligated to point out that Ferengi in 90s Star Trek called women "female" and it was supposed to make you understand that they were misogynistic. So it's not really something that started with incels over the last few years.

[-] WhatAnOddUsername@hexbear.net 31 points 1 year ago

"Women" is fine as a noun, but what should be used as an adjective if not "female"?

[-] AcidSmiley@hexbear.net 48 points 1 year ago

I'm going with comrade Feinberg on this, i use woman for the gender identity, feminine for the social role and female for biological characteristics. If you need an adjective relating to woman, it's womanly, if you need a noun relating to feminine, it's fem / femme, if you want to use female as a noun you better be talking about a dog and not a human being.

leslie-feinberg

[-] Nagarjuna@hexbear.net 21 points 1 year ago

if you want to use female as a noun you better be talking about a dog and not a human being.

But also don't talk about dogs like that

vegan-v

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[-] queermunist@lemmy.ml 31 points 1 year ago

Isn't this about using "female" as a noun?

[-] ChestRockwell@hexbear.net 52 points 1 year ago

Yeah that's how I understand it. Like saying "that's a female horse" is normal and fine.

The issue is saying "look at that female over there" or "she is a female". That's the dehumanizing shit, "look at that woman" or "she is a woman" is far less weird as well.

[-] queermunist@lemmy.ml 25 points 1 year ago

It'd been something Redditeurs have been doing since way back in the SRS days - weird nerd shit.

[-] Owl@hexbear.net 16 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)
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[-] SerLava@hexbear.net 16 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Because of the demeaning usage as a noun, some people are starting to get uncomfortable with even using female as an adjective, and you will hear people use "woman" as an adjective like "she became the first woman triathlete" which isn't really right but it's not that bad... I dunno, I'm a guy so take my two cents for what they're worth, but I don't think we should surrender the entire word "female" to weird online fascist nerds

[-] happybirthdaygonzolo@hexbear.net 14 points 1 year ago

I think as a whole we should try to make language gender neutral. But I can think of better hills to die on. Like most people are conscious of referring to women as female, even women. As we become more aware of it then I think things will start to change.

[-] D61@hexbear.net 13 points 1 year ago

I'm not big on hard grammar rules so in the contexts that I see it used in "woman" does add extra meanings like, adulthood and agency while "female" might not.

There was a post a week or two ago about "men having sex with females" which kinda made my ears prick up. Because female can include the concepts of babies and corpses when woman seems to rarely be used to include those things.

So it feels easier for me understand using the term woman when referring to a group of that should naturally exclude members who would be included when using the term female.

[-] ReadFanon@hexbear.net 19 points 1 year ago

This is something that trips me up, especially when I'm speaking.

I tend to use some version of "oriented towards women" or "stereotypically 'women's [such and such]" but using "feminine" (and "masculine") can often work too.

I try to avoid saying "female" as an adjective because it is biologically-essentist and exclusive of all women. But it does make for clunkier wording often.

[-] robot_dog_with_gun@hexbear.net 13 points 1 year ago

sometimes it's rephrasing entirely like "first woman in space" rather than "first female cosmonaut".

if it's relevant to bring up biological norms then female and male are fine as long as you're not trampling over trans people, but we should certainly avoid constructions like "men and females" which the quark and incels use without thinking.

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[-] BeamBrain@hexbear.net 28 points 1 year ago
[-] FourteenEyes@hexbear.net 25 points 1 year ago

Was going to say, it's pronounced "fee-moid" :quark:

[-] usernamesaredifficul@hexbear.net 25 points 1 year ago

female as an adjective is fine female as a noun is weird

[-] IvarK@lemmygrad.ml 11 points 1 year ago

This is a great take i think, never thought of it that way before

[-] RyanGosling@hexbear.net 10 points 1 year ago

For me, the exception for using it as a noun is biological discussions e.g. animals, cadavers, biological discussions of sexes

Or if its nonspecific. "Amongst most mammals the female of the species is larger than the male." is fine.

[-] Brak@hexbear.net 25 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

using “female” has been cringe for years outside of biology & certain healthcare settings. unsurprised reddit is still rehashing early 2010’s discourse

shrug-outta-hecks

[-] Nagarjuna@hexbear.net 24 points 1 year ago

I love that the sheer mention of a struggle session is enough to ignite one here

[-] 1nt3rd1m3nt10n4l@hexbear.net 19 points 1 year ago

Never Stop Posting. posting

[-] tenochtitlan@lemmy.ml 23 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

That's a lot of words to show how bad the term female is. I like showing people this sonic video and that gets the point across much faster.

[-] Clever_Clover@hexbear.net 18 points 1 year ago

I despise you for exposing me to this, dishonor on you, dishonor on your cow, spreading this kind of nuclear grade cringe should be a punishable crime.

[-] LeninWeave@hexbear.net 12 points 1 year ago

I made it 30 seconds and I'm dead now. You've killed me.

[-] UlyssesT@hexbear.net 11 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

That's NOOOO GOOD! no-copyright volcel-vanguard

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[-] Tripbin@hexbear.net 17 points 1 year ago
[-] kristina@hexbear.net 12 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

They figured this shit out in the 80s guys

[-] Averagemaoist@hexbear.net 16 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

"it does now mostly thanks to co-opting by incels"

I don't really get where this talking point comes from, its just not true. Have you ever browsed an incel forum to see what those hogs are thinking? They never refer to women as females. Ever. I've never seen it once in one of their spaces. Not on r/braincels, not on r/incels, not in incelsco or whatever new forum they've migrated to in the past few years. They exclusively refer to women as foids or holes.

Referring to women as females is very common in the African American community though.

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[-] UlyssesT@hexbear.net 15 points 1 year ago

Technical correctness is a dog whistle for all sorts of weird nerd shit, most of it intended to dehumanize or trivialize other people that they find less than themselves.

You know how people that NATO wants to dehumanize or trivialize are "unlawful combatants?" It's shit like that.

[-] ChestRockwell@hexbear.net 15 points 1 year ago

Unless it’s some shit like calling the homeless, the unhoused

Yeah without any actual policy behind it it's very silly. However the semantic change pisses off chuds so I'm not entirely against it. Critical support, like "sure let's call them unhoused but what's the plan to stop the problem".

[-] ksynwa@lemmygrad.ml 16 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I personally find it unusually satisfying when nominal changes like this are enforced because of how badly it makes chuds seethe. Chuds will call out virtue signalling without realising that they are too depraved to even signal anything remotely resembling virtue. It happened when GitHub changed their default branch name from master (slave-master connotation) to main.

[-] happybirthdaygonzolo@hexbear.net 12 points 1 year ago

Disagree, calling the homeless the unhoused came from the libs, it’s a right wing concept. We are fighting a culture war with the right and we mustn’t give them an inch.

[-] Egon@hexbear.net 14 points 1 year ago

I appreciate your two cents, but tbh I think it's much simpler. Personally I feel the vibe is the same when people use "male" as well in the same context - that's just quite rare to happen.

It's because it's weirdly clinical language. It feels weird, you wouldn't describe your mother as a "female", you'd call her a "woman".
It's detached, sort of dehumanising really.

[-] Stoatmilk@hexbear.net 10 points 1 year ago

Was using female as a noun considered normal at some point? I genuinely do not know.

But if it was, it might not be a case of a euphemism treadmill, but a phenomenon related to the struggle for social recognition. When an identity goes from recognition from an outside perspective to recognition from an inside perspective, the name for it often changes. A similar thing happened/is happening with homosexual -> gay and transsexual -> transgender. The takeaway in the context of this conversation is that, unlike the treadmill, it might not be a repeating process.

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this post was submitted on 04 Sep 2023
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