Unless that person is voting for a rapist, say like trump.
Feel free to shame anyone voting for a rapist. People who vote for rapists should be ashamed of themselves.
Being a rapist is barely even in the top three awful things about Trump. That's how bad he is.
Not sure sending weapons to a genocidal government is the best plan for keeping him out of the White House but hey what do I know
Unfortunately, sending weapons to a genocidal government is a non-partisan issue at the moment. A large majority of Democrats still support sending aid to Israel.
Change starts from the ground, not the top. As nice as it would be to get someone who supports all the rational causes we do into power, democracy means that we have to get the rest of the voters onboard first.
Yeah I get that. It's just fundamentally shit and I'm not convinced it's good tactics. The court will make a preliminary ruling (probably in favour of South Africa) in a few weeks or so. It will be on record that Biden has supported a genocide.
Has Trump started calling Biden "Genocide Joe" yet? How do you think that is going to go? The last election was scarily close. What if Trump does his usual "ramble with no apparent plan" thing and makes some anti-Israel statement because of the obvious reality that we and even he can see clearly? I guess what I'm saying is that it's kind of leaving him an open goal. What's the point, again?
Has Trump started calling Biden “Genocide Joe” yet? How do you think that is going to go?
Poorly. If there's anything his base hates more than liberals, it's brown people and Muslims. Not only that, but the Israeli lobby is extremely strong in US politics.
The last election was scarily close. What if Trump does his usual “ramble with no apparent plan” thing and makes some anti-Israel statement because of the obvious reality that we and even he can see clearly?
You're kidding, right? He'll brag about how he would have given Israel so much more support than 'Sleepy Joe' and that he's Israel's best friend, the best president for Israel ever. Not only that, but making an anti-Israel statement would lose Trump more votes than it gains him - anti-Israel positions simply are not popular in the electorate currently.
This is the same guy that recognized Jerusalem as Israel's capital despite objections from both sides of the aisle. Trump loves the Israeli far-right too much to turn against them on humanitarian grounds.
I guess what I’m saying is that it’s kind of leaving him an open goal. What’s the point, again?
For me, the point is that Biden is the best we are realistically gonna get at this point in time. If we magicked up an anti-Israel candidate to take his place, that would still leave the issue of anti-Israel policies remaining deeply unpopular with the electorate, and that candidate, subsequently, losing short of some equally magicked-up gilded tongue. In light of that, treating this as an issue to vote against Biden for, or abstain, is nothing more than handing over the presidency to Trump for no other reason than that the vast majority of voters disagree with you and you're upset about that (generic you, not specific you). It's not 'teaching' a candidate or the party anything. It's not contributing to a change in policy. It's not even a meaningful objection to ongoing policy, since it's an effective contribution to the candidate who is unambiguously worse on the subject of Israeli support.
Poorly. If there's anything his base hates more than liberals, it's brown people and Muslims.
Because the fascists just love jews? They hate both on racist grounds.
You're kidding, right?
Obviously not. Needlessly impolite.
This is the same guy that recognized Jerusalem as Israel's capital despite objections from both sides of the aisle. Trump loves the Israeli far-right too much to turn against them on humanitarian grounds.
Yeah fair point.
I'll look up some statistics about voters' views on this but I guess Lemmy gives me a bit of a warped view of people's position on this. I did see one that backed up your point though yeah.
For me, the point is that Biden is the best we are realistically gonna get at this point in time.
I meant the point of Biden supporting Israel through this man made horror but yeah sure. You addressed that anyway.
It's not 'teaching' a candidate or the party anything.
I agree there is no choice but to vote Biden anyway but this is only because they are not willing to learn and apparently have absolutely no principles they won't sell down the river for some short term convenience. It is embarrassing for all concerned and frankly it disgusts me to my core.
Obviously not. Needlessly impolite.
Didn't mean it impolitely, only as a challenge to the point.
I’ll look up some statistics about voters’ views on this but I guess Lemmy gives me a bit of a warped view of people’s position on this. I did see one that backed up your point though yeah.
Yeah, like, I would love if anti-Israel views were more common, but... fuck, the past 40 years or so of propaganda have done a number on popular views.
I agree there is no choice but to vote Biden anyway but this is only because they are not willing to learn and apparently have absolutely no principles they won’t sell down the river for some short term convenience. It is embarrassing for all concerned and frankly it disgusts me to my core.
Unfortunately, people with principles in politics are the exception rather than the rule.
Didn't mean it impolitely, only as a challenge to the point.
No worries, it's not like you bombed a hospital so I guess we can move past it, lol.
Unfortunately, people with principles in politics are the exception rather than the rule.
Unfortunate is right. Not much solace for the people with relatives in Gaza or a child trapped under the rubble that was once his home. Sorry for sending the bombs guys but politics is broken, we don't have a viable alternative right now, try again in four years.
Yeah. It's fucked up.
Im not sure but I think most folks views on israel is they want nothing to with it or really the region. The country was artifically created but its been around and if you want to say the country should just leave as they are not the original people, well as an american I can't be that much of a hypocrite. Then you have the fact that nothing we have done in the region has ever resulted in good outcomes.
Man, I'm not one of those cretins who says "The Jews must be driven to the sea!" or any of that nonsense. I just think that Israel, as a functioning nation-state, needs to stop committing genocide, and I would really like if everyone here in the West was on the same page on that matter. I don't think that's a high bar to clear. Or at least, it shouldn't be.
I get you but again some of us just want nothing to do with it and not just them but the saudis and pakistan and all of it. Granted we are in so deep in this region and plenty of americans felt the same as we were getting involved. We are in the chains of our past. Keep in mind we were not looking to get involved in ww2 to rescue legitimate democracies much less the individual people and children suffering. Whats going on over there sucks but it always has and our interference, including now, has not resulted in better outcomes.
I mean, my position is that any aid should be conditional on humane and lawful treatment of the Palestinian nation, but the chances of that are so slim that my position is effectively that we should withdraw all Israeli aid. Not that we should intervene or land troops or anything.
for me its lets not do anything. sure if our ships or allies are being threatened we defend that but otherwise nothing. of course I would like us to do the same with egypt and turkey and such but that aint gonna happen. Heck I would prefer the UN only be made up of democracies. How can you have a democratically run institution with non democratic nations.
but that's what the post is saying. Yes, we know Trump is a fucking maroon, but saying that to Trump voters doesn't work.
The post is asking "Do you to tell them Trump sucks and they vote for Trump anyway, or do you want to lead with policy and potentially change their mind?"
Consider you're using an app, which you like, and someone says "Oh that app sucks." You'd think "ok guy!" But if someone said "oh if you like that app you should check out this one, it has twice the functions, and all these quality of life improvements, and it's more secure and doesn't have any ads" you'd think "my guy!"
just some food for thought.
but that’s what the post is saying. Yes, we know Trump is a fucking maroon, but saying that to Trump voters doesn’t work.
I don't think this meme is supposed to be about Trump voters.
Biden is a far better president and presidential candidate with progressive foreign and domestic policies that have tangibly and practically helped hundreds of millions of people.
So we already have that down.
Trump supporters and conservatives in general are clear that they don't care about policy as much as they care about idolizing someone who hurts other people.
So I think it's important that they know their candidate has been found liable for the extreme of hurting other people and actually committed rape.
If a conservative cares that much about hurting other people, it should be known widely and explicitly clear that they are supporting a rapist. That clashes more with their false, professed ideals than climate science they don't believe in or sustainable resource management or a higher value currency.
Meme is like saying politics doesn't work. Reckon with the consequences of your vote. It's a two party first past the post system. The math is not that complicated. Be honest about it.
Yeah, this post trying to pass the blame onto people who correctly recognize the consequences of the design of our electoral system seems shortsighted, but these are American voters after all.
It also assumes that the politics of whoever is reading it has "popular" policies. The country is very divided on what's "popular". The first step is advocating for your policies and convincing other people of it. It's a lot easier to just whine and complain and not try to change things and put the responsibility on others. Convincing others of your politics are your responsibility, not others.
"Oh wow, these fascist concentration camps we're being sent to are really bad, but have you considered that the democrat's foreign policy was only moderately less heinous, instead of significantly? Both sides!"
The Republicans are absolutely worse, yes, but voter apathy among leftists is 100% the fault of Dems. They do not try to garner support of leftists in any way, and voting for dems does not move America to the left, it just solidifies it in its current Neoliberal position.
The answer to leftist voter apathy is therefore not to shame them, but help them see that because voting will not move America to the left, it's purely loss prevention. People absolutely stand to lose under Trump, or any other Republican, so leftists should vote for the Neoliberals.
However, that alone is not enough. To move America to the left, the most effective path is via grassroots organization like Unionization and electing Socialists to local offices. Pressure the system from below and the top will follow.
That's how you appeal to leftists more, since the Dems seem keen on pissing on Leftists.
The Republicans are absolutely worse, yes, but voter apathy among leftists is 100% the fault of Dems. They do not try to garner support of leftists in any way, and voting for dems does not move America to the left, it just solidifies it in its current Neoliberal position.
Considering how far to the right America is, I'm gonna have to disagree about voting for Dems not moving America left. All things are relative, and relative to what we're facing down from the GOP, the milquetoast neolib Dems look like Vladimir fucking Lenin.
The answer to leftist voter apathy is therefore not to shame them, but help them see that because voting will not move America to the left, it’s purely loss prevention. People absolutely stand to lose under Trump, or any other Republican, so leftists should vote for the Neoliberals.
The point of the shame is that they're refusing to engage in loss prevention. That loudmouths on here would prefer to uphold some ideal of "I'm not going to vote for anyone except those who agree with me completely, no matter who suffers because of it!" and need to be fucking shamed. It's lack of shame that enables them to indulge in purist and accelerationist fantasies at the expense of the actual wellbeing of minority and oppressed groups.
However, that alone is not enough. To move America to the left, the most effective path is via grassroots organization like Unionization and electing Socialists to local offices. Pressure the system from below and the top will follow.
I agree.
I hear the sentiment about dems being significantly closer to the center than the fascist reps, but that's not a linear move by voring dem. You aren't voting to move America closer to Socialism, but closer to Neoliberalism. If the dems won every single election, they still would stay neoliberal unless the Reps fell and a more leftist party took its place. You can't push America to the left by voting harder, just push it closer to Neoliberalism.
My point about shame is that usually, radlibs try to yell at leftists by showcasing how progressive Biden is compared to previous dems, when being progressive for a Neoliberal is still a fucking Neoliberal. I've seen it plenty of times, a leftist points out that voting for dems won't move America to the left (correct) and then radlibs try to say that Biden somehow is actually good and leftist (incorrect, he's just a progressive Neoliberal), then the leftist feels more alienated and doesn't vote at all because nothing will change (incorrect conclusion).
By framing electoralism not as a means to gain what leftists want, but to avoid losing what they have, and pointing out that actual change comes from bottom-up, you prevent voter apathy and inspire activism.
I hear the sentiment about dems being significantly closer to the center than the fascist reps, but that’s not a linear move by voring dem. You aren’t voting to move America closer to Socialism, but closer to Neoliberalism. If the dems won every single election, they still would stay neoliberal unless the Reps fell and a more leftist party took its place. You can’t push America to the left by voting harder, just push it closer to Neoliberalism.
I think we just have a fundamentally different perspective on this one. My point of view is that neoliberalism is closer to the left than corporatocracy and fascism - not by virtue of being particularly left, but by virtue of being closer to the center, and thus that the difference between "Democracy, but free market fetishists with a welfare state" and "Democracy, but socialist" is smaller than "Democracy, but socialist" and "Neocalvinist ultranationalist authoritarians"
Voting for neoliberals in my view thus does move the country left relative to where it is currently - but only to a point, and not indefinitely (and only because we're already pretty far right overall).
I think you misunderstand my point. America is already Neoliberal, that's why the Democrats ran on a platform of "nothing will fundamentally change." A vote for dems does push america comparatively left on a left/right scale, yes, but as it gets closer to neoliberalism it will move less and less left with each election cycle. The pressure to move left comes from the bottom up.
Then I think we're in agreement, just expressing it differently.
Most likely, yes! That's a huge problem I think for many on this platform, most of the leftist infighting comes from saying the same thing in different ways. There's legitimate infighting too, of course, but most of it is silly.
You mean the fascists that democrats support in primaries because they're "unelectable"? Democrats can eat shit, same with any of their voters who are deluded enough to think that people unwilling to vote for senile genocidal nazis and their collaborators are the real fascists
Keep carrying water for fascists, eventually they'll pat you on the head and call you a good little collaborator before you get the same treatment the rest of us will.
This shit is why I'm not voting for biden. I don't wanna vote for a denocidal cunt whose party supports Actual Fucking Nazis, and smug cunts like you just make me even more sure it's the right choice
"One option is bad, so I'm going to choose the worse option!"
Those of us who will be rounded up for extermination thank you for your stunning dedication to democracy at home and abroad. I'm sure the Palestinians will be kissing your boots too, for putting an even more pro-genocide president in office. But hey, who cares if more Palestinians die because you wanted Trump in office? At least you can say "I didn't vote for JOE BIDEN" when the fascists are marching us to the ditches to be shot.
Also holy shit you think trump will kill more Palestinians than biden? Holy shit you're delusional xDDDD he's literally as fucking awful as he could be about it without literally nuking Gaza, trump would be shit too (like most presidents) but he literally cannot be worse than biden in that regard
Are you kidding? There is so much fucking more we could be doing. That's either a lack of understanding of what Biden is and is not doing, a lack of understanding of what the president can do, or a simple lack of imagination. Do you really think Trump wouldn't have jets running sorties on Palestinian targets right now? Do you think Trump would be using any of the US's influence to peddle 'humanitarian pauses', since Bibi has explicitly and loudly rejected the idea of a ceasefire? Do you think Trump wouldn't be pulling out all the stops to see Palestinians die and brag about what a great and murderous 'war president' he is?
All this commenter is thinking is that they can't wait for trump's reelection
It would have been quicker and easier to type "vote trump everyone"
Democrats are gonna keep going right until eventually Democrats are gonna be right off desantis and you're gonna support them the whole way. How sad, I wish you wouldn't completely fuck over my life and the lives of everyone else here just because you want to feel superior to everyone else
Vote shaming doesn't work because people are stubborn and annoying, not because it's theoretically unsound. Although yes, adopting popular policies would be good as well.
I don't understand it but apparently most people respond to shame by doubling down.
Instead of "dude I can't believe you voted for trump. He's a rapist failed business man who wants to destabilize Europe and be a dictator" doesn't yield "yeah I fucked up" in most people, but instead "no you're an asshole and I did nothing wrong!"
Admitting fault is a power move and more people should embrace it.
To shame someone, he must already agree with you that what he did is wrong, and consider you morally supperior. You can brute-force it with small children, because these propositions hold. Adults will just think you're an asshole.
Shame is psychologically painful - or brain will do amazing things to avoid that pain. You're right that admitting fault is a power move, but it requires being able to cope with that potential pain and move forward. Easier to just assert the other person is wrong and avoid that pain completely.
Sounds like fascist propaganda to me but ok
Well, that's because it is.
So.... you're saying.... I should get compromat on Biden... is what you're saying?
I mean, unironically, it would be great if someone used compromat for good for once.
Probably. The problem is... anybody who'd use it for good... probably sucks at the whole corruption thing
This is a generic statement for a generic time with generic candidates, we're not in that time - If any of you are starting to have your memories fade, here's a quick refresher to read this morning and then copy and send to anyone that needs the refresher
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