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submitted 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) by LibsEatPoop@hexbear.net to c/chapotraphouse@hexbear.net

Source.

On Nathan J. Robinson. I learnt yesterday that he didn’t do any union-busting, and the departing writers/editors who stirred up so much drama on left-Twitter were lying all along. This article by Yasmin Nair gives the full breakdown with a lot of receipts.

I was linked this article by @HarryLime@hexbear.net in his post yesterday, where NJR was vindicated on calling out Fetterman being terrible back in 2022. The replies to that tweet are filled with people dunking on Nathan, while the quote tweets, almost all from the past couple days, are filled with everyone apologizing.

It’s pretty interesting to see.

I’m currently going through his other tweets. So far, NJR seems like a pretty decent guy with a lot of good analysis', completely different from the caricature I made up in my mind from memes and tweets.

It’s quite strange. I used to read Current Affairs before the “incident” and even listened to the podcast. I liked everyone there, including Nathan. I guess that’s why when I heard what happened, and saw in real time all the people I liked fighting with each other (well, all the people I recognised from the articles and the podcast dunking Nathan), I felt betrayed in a sense. I remember writing an email or filling out a form or something similar that the writers who’d been “fired” had set up. Maybe I donated money too, but I don’t remember that. If I did, it would be a small amount.

And I stopped my subscription to Current Affairs, changing it to Jacobin instead.

There was a lot of trolling that went on. I don’t think I ever tweeted at him personally, but that doesn’t matter. I know I consumed the tweets and posts (even here and on the subreddit back when it existed!)

Why? For me, I guess, it was a sense of justice mixed with betrayal: here was a man who headed an org I respected who had betrayed these principals we all hold dear, and in doing so hurt these other people who I also like. And the only power I have in enacting “justice” is in ridiculing him a little bit.

But even then, that never achieved anything. I won’t say “dunking” as a whole is useless. It can be useful in bringing people together and giving us a sense of camaraderie, but only when it’s against deserving subjects - billionaires and the like. It’s like part of forming an identity around common things we hate.

But… completely divorced from any other forms of unification, any other ways to group and coalesce, all that left is a weak identity that does nothing but dunk for no other purpose. Thats, I guess, what happened to me.

None of us here became leftists for the purpose of trolling others. Using it to hurt and bully others is what people on the right do, even if they consider themselves apolitical sometimes.

But dunking on Nathan…became that. Didn’t it? In the article, Yasmin Nair points to real world examples of people bullying him. I imagine they did so out of a similar feeling of “betrayal”, and sought “justice” too. But how would that achieve it? It wouldn’t. It can’t.

This happened because we separated our actual politics - leftism - from our online activities. Maybe not all of us, but I’d wage at least quite a few. If Current Affairs had failed in the years between the Incident and the start of Jan, 2024, I would’ve thought “sad this happened, but serves him right” with no thought to the actual damage that would’ve done to the real world impacts of losing a magazine like that to left politics.

That’s a failing on my part. It’s a failing that I let my personal grievances with Nathan (Ill-informed as I now know) shut me off completely from Current Affairs as a whole, with all the great writers who work and publish there, then and now.

I remember there was an effort, early on in this site’s history, of making this place more than just a place to shitpost online - to actually be used to organise. It failed, partly because we were small and partly because we were too resistant. There were also onboarding efforts to allow us to grow to mitigate that first problem, but it ran into the second one, our resistance to change, and, well, here we are today. Is there anyone here who remembers those days? What a mess. Since then, a lot of original people who created and did the heavy lifting of maintaining this site, including creatively, left.

I remember enquiring sometime ago, maybe 2022, maybe 2023, about what happened to the writers who left Current Affairs. Have they found other jobs? Where are they working, publishing, podcasting? I wanted to support them. I didn’t figure it out. Some have now deleted their Twitter, others have privated their accounts. Maybe it’s for the best.

Maybe things could’ve been different if we could’ve grown and changed and been the place for atleast left-adjacent people to come by the time Reddit exploded and people started to migrate to Lemmy. Who knows? That’s a different world, and probably also a different post. But at least we could learn something from our mistakes. I am trying to from mine. —

This went in directions I wasn’t expecting. I just typed out my thoughts as they came to me. You don’t really have to read it.

TLDR: “I’m sorry, Nathan” and maybe dunking, without any thing else, is not good.

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[-] Tankiedesantski@hexbear.net 55 points 5 months ago

No one proposes that the US bomb Israel...

I-was-saying

[-] PM_ME_YOUR_FOUCAULTS@hexbear.net 48 points 5 months ago

NJR is a anti-Marxist demsoc who dresses like he's about to give a lecture on phrenology. If he's been vindicated, then fine, good for him. But I don't think it demands a lot of of soul searching from anyone who dunked on him. And personally I was around for the old days too. It was pretty much like it is now and the obstacles to organizing here were the same then as they are now, which is why it didn't happen.

[-] RonPaulyShore@hexbear.net 39 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

people shouldn't feel bad for self-cannablizing and libeling a good leftist voice, and he dresses dumb

no investigation no right to speak, no posting of your own drip no right to speak

[-] PM_ME_YOUR_FOUCAULTS@hexbear.net 27 points 5 months ago

Boy it be awful if that was even close to what I said huh

[-] LibsEatPoop@hexbear.net 27 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

From the post I linked in the text:

I say in Why You Should Be A Socialist that [Marx] had “a better understanding than almost anyone else of the way that economics determines the fabric of the social world,” and praise texts of his as “brilliant” and “profound,” full of “great insight.” I am not sure how that can be squared with thinking I have scant regard for him.

I’m not saying he’s Vijay Prasad. There’s only so much I can expect from any western leftist, Hexbear included. But he’s created a successful leftist magazine that some people tried to tear down and were thankfully unsuccessful. Learning about what went on has made me do some soul-searching and conclude a world with Current Affairs, and NJR writing what he writes, is better than one without, no matter our disagreements.

Also, we’re using DemSoc as a pejorative now too, huh? I remember when we used to split hairs, saying SucDem were acceptable to dunk on because they actually just wanted Nordic-style welfare states, but DemSocs were genuine socialists. I guess the circle of acceptable leftists must get ever smaller. The site can’t remain left unity forever. When will the anarchists (the few that remain) be culled?

[-] PM_ME_YOUR_FOUCAULTS@hexbear.net 41 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

Lmao, he said on the Current Affairs podcast that the left would be better off if Marx had never existed. That's how people got the idea that he had scant regard for Marx.

Also, we’re using DemSoc as a pejorative now too, huh? I remember when we used to split hairs, saying SucDem were acceptable to dunk on because they actually just wanted Nordic-style welfare states, but DemSocs were genuine socialists. I guess the circle of acceptable leftists must get ever smaller. The site can’t remain left unity forever. When will the anarchists (the few that remain) be culled?

Reading this in a weepy Jordan Peterson Kermit voice. It's a description of his position, not a pejorative jesus

[-] Ram_The_Manparts@hexbear.net 28 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

Lmao, he said on the Current Affairs podcast that the left would be better off if Marx had never existed.

Damn, he actually came up with a worse take than Chomsky's "The fall of the USSR was the best thing to happen to socialism".

What a time to be alive.

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[-] voight@hexbear.net 19 points 5 months ago

If I had a time machine that could take me to a white room outside space and time which contained both baby Karl Marx and baby Hitler, I would shoot Marx twice, because without socialism Hitler wouldn't have been able to commit genocide

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[-] kristina@hexbear.net 18 points 5 months ago

When will the anarchists (the few that remain) be culled?

when @Nakoichi@hexbear.net bans them for making cringe posts

[-] Nakoichi@hexbear.net 27 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

The kind Vladimir Ilyich would have ~~shot~~ banned everyone here

kind-vladimir-ilyich

[-] spectre@hexbear.net 16 points 5 months ago

"socialism is when you agree with me and the more you agree with me the more socialister it is"

[-] PM_ME_YOUR_FOUCAULTS@hexbear.net 22 points 5 months ago
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[-] Sinistar@hexbear.net 41 points 5 months ago

Me: the left in the west needs everyone we can get so any kind of left punching is unjustified

Also me (sometimes): lmao look at this demsoc dipshit

I think having really firm and well-defined principles is important, and I also think it's hard to do without a larger organization helping you maintain them. As an individual we are too caught up in our own emotions, the whims of the crowd, our personal experiences and parasocial relationships to always see our own principles clearly, and this kind of cannibalistic dunking is the result.

I also think that cointelpro never ended, and that a lot of the shit stirring that often paralyzes the western left isn't organic.

[-] Cherufe@hexbear.net 29 points 5 months ago
[-] AntiOutsideAktion@hexbear.net 28 points 5 months ago

The NJR redemption struggle sessions will be 10x the size of his cancellation

[-] Egon@hexbear.net 24 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

Based on the interactions so far it will mainly be this interaction: people calling him a union buster > article disproving the claim is posted > people say it's too long > a summary is posted > people say he still sucks because of something he said on a podcast or he's not a Stalinist or whatever > 20+ comments deep discussion about what left unity and critical support entails

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[-] voight@hexbear.net 27 points 5 months ago

While this still makes my eye twitch, it's better than all the people who are running with the dumb "indiscriminate attacks on global shipping" narrative - even people who are purportedly pro-resistance (usually the same people posting shit like WHY ISN'T IRAN DOING ANYTHING. WHERE IS XI. WHY IS HEZBOLLAH NOT DOING ANYTHING)

[-] LibsEatPoop@hexbear.net 21 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

It boggles the mind. The few sane voices are like islands on a sea of reaction ready to genocide Yemen for daring to stop the genocide of Palestine.

I’m surprised, but pleasantly, to see Nathan as one of those islands.

[-] voight@hexbear.net 14 points 5 months ago

That's a bit of a screed sorry, by "bazinga takes" I mean if you're actually arguing about whether Ansar Allah attacks on Israeli shipments raised prices for USian "working class "people"" (more on this later) to the point where you reach "that's a good thing" you've swallowed the framing that's it's the attacks and not the capital strike increasing prices, and those prices are actually responsive to shipping costs instead of being calculated by "how many people in this neighborhood will probably pay 7.99 for chips absentmindedly?" and how much the suppliers feel like laying waste to everything, etc.

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[-] AlpineSteakHouse@hexbear.net 26 points 5 months ago

But… completely divorced from any other forms of unification, any other ways to group and coalesce, all that left is a weak identity that does nothing but dunk for no other purpose. Thats, I guess, what happened to me.

You need to understand most hexbear users are leftist by vibe and life experience, not theory.

They like to imagine they'd be party members in the revolution but they're not. They are the equivalent of the peasant soldiers fit with their own reductive Little Red Book they've put together from posting and memes. They have the right ideas but they have weird group dynamics because their structure is based on social groups not theory.

Most came to leftism more so because it gave political legitimacy to personal grievances, not a desire for truth. Most don't hate cops because they represent the bourgeoisie class interest, they hate them because they were jerks or arrested them for smoking pot. That's fine as an impetus for starting, but you have to fucking read theory. If you haven't at least read some Marx and Lenin then you are liberals in actions if not in view.

[-] CyborgMarx@hexbear.net 18 points 5 months ago

I've read plenty of theory and I've never gotten that vibe

This place is more well read and up to date on theory then 99% of leftist places on the English speaking internet

They have the right ideas but they have weird group dynamics because their structure is based on social groups not theory.

Most theory is about the study and observation of different social groups, what does "weird groups dynamics" even mean in this context?

Plz tell me you're not whining about forum cliques, let folks have their internet friends, shit really isn't that dire

[-] bigboopballs@hexbear.net 15 points 5 months ago

where do you even get this take about hexbear users?

[-] ElGosso@hexbear.net 26 points 5 months ago

If you're a union-buster who dresses like you're three question marks away from sending brain-teasers to Batman then I'm going to bully you shrug-outta-hecks

[-] LibsEatPoop@hexbear.net 51 points 5 months ago

I wanna thank you for your comment because now I’m able to formulate a better TLDR: He didn’t do any union-busting and your bullying can harm your supposed political aims in the real world.

[-] EmmaGoldman@hexbear.net 29 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

Ok yes but he does dress like 2004 Tucker Carlson in a world where bowties are illegal and that can also harm your supposed political aims in the real world.

[-] Dolores@hexbear.net 22 points 5 months ago

like 2004 Tucker Carlson in a world where bowties are illegal

damn but if it ain't true che-laugh

[-] WithoutFurtherBelay@hexbear.net 18 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

And the best way to get someone who would definitely just listen if you told them that without hostility is to… insult them on an online forum where they’ll never read it? Sounds like people here just really want to bully others, huh?

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[-] farting_weedman@hexbear.net 20 points 5 months ago

I know this isn’t a cool or good thing to say, but I read enough of that article to get sick from the saccharine prose and saw the scroll at was only ten percent of the way down.

If whoever njr is didn’t squash a Union attempt at whatever current affairs is, can you explain it here? I’m not reading all that.

[-] regul@hexbear.net 39 points 5 months ago

Various CA employees who treated CA as a writing club that gave them and their friends checks wanted NJR to support hiring a white woman friend of theirs over a WOC and also to let the person hired as an admin assistant write articles and not do admin work. Company had a big long retreat while all this was happening. One item discussed was turning CA into a worker-owned co-op. The workers, who had representation on the board, could have fired NJR at any time and done this themselves. After the retreat, worried about the direction these employees were trying to take CA, NJR asked for their resignations in an indelicate way, but did not have the authority to fire them.

They all publicly announced that they had been fired (they had not) and implied that they could not pay their bills. In reality they had all quit and been given 5 months severance with benefits.

[-] farting_weedman@hexbear.net 23 points 5 months ago

Thank you. I neither expected nor deserved to have someone else wade through this bullshit and then summarize it for me. You’re truly wonderful.

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[-] PorkrollPosadist@hexbear.net 20 points 5 months ago

We have so many jonkler emotes and yet not a single rizzler emote.

[-] Utter_Karate@hexbear.net 25 points 5 months ago

I-was-saying I was proposing the US should bomb Israel to facilitate the "Free flow of global commerce".

[-] Walk_On@hexbear.net 24 points 5 months ago

I love that the latest struggle session is about an anti-Marxist social democrat on a predominantly ML and anarchist site. Like I said before, all the dude does is write good articles sometimes. He's not worth dying on a hill over. lol

[-] CyborgMarx@hexbear.net 15 points 5 months ago

Three day bans for everyone who participated in that foolishness

Embrassing display all around, imagine getting pressed over NPR riddler in either direction

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[-] CyborgMarx@hexbear.net 22 points 5 months ago

Nathan Robinson is not worth a 150 comment thread, get a grip hexbear

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[-] BodyBySisyphus@hexbear.net 22 points 5 months ago

I get that NJR dresses like a time traveler from the Titanic but it's not like John Fetterman's hoodies have had any demonstrable improvement on his opinions. If sartorial idiosyncracy is your biggest gripe I say let the poor guy have his ascot.

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[-] Egon@hexbear.net 20 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

Love to see people in this here comment section post knee-jerk responses and then never once investigate their own beliefs when confronted with data conflicting of their worldview. Why would they? They hold the correct opinion of course.

You are not above being wrong, just because you're a socialist.

[-] MattsAlt@hexbear.net 18 points 5 months ago

yEaH bUt He DrEsSeS wEiRd

As if these same people don't post elsewhere about rejecting certain societal norms or embracing their own peculiarities to feel themselves.

Anyone posting such drivel should be ashamed.

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[-] wombat@hexbear.net 18 points 5 months ago

all palestinian violence against israel is self-defense.

[-] zifnab25@hexbear.net 18 points 5 months ago

Honestly, my brain first went to Cuba.

But yes, sieging Gaza for decades on end... maybe Houthi policy is just a reflection of what the Israelis have established as the terms of conflict.

[-] a_blanqui_slate@hexbear.net 18 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

Weirdness exists on spectrum.

Eccentric - Plain Weird - Creepy

I think leftism would be better served in the long run if we hung out on the Eccentric part of that continuum like Our Beautiful Velvet Boy as opposed to the plain weird verging on creepy that a lot of leftists seem to prefer.

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[-] WithoutFurtherBelay@hexbear.net 16 points 5 months ago
[-] HexBroke@hexbear.net 15 points 5 months ago

Google "Nathan Robinson Stalinism" and that should tell you enough

On the upside, I think his ideological position is quite unsustainable so he's on a pipeline to Lenin or to Hitler I guess

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[-] grandepequeno@hexbear.net 13 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

Generally speaking bombastic denunciations of other leftists and leftist organizations are not good and they're probably a reflection of how weak the left is and the lack of stakes for the "leftists" engaging in this

[-] 420blazeit69@hexbear.net 15 points 5 months ago

And "well they aren't True Leftists like me, so who cares if my smears are right or the facts I have are even accurate" is a weak fallback position.

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this post was submitted on 12 Jan 2024
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chapotraphouse

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