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submitted 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) by deathtoreddit@lemmygrad.ml to c/askchapo@hexbear.net

cross-posted from: https://lemmygrad.ml/post/3190259

To me they're like mere servants of the State, like Lenin talked about in "2. What is to Replace the Smashed State Machine?" in his writing "The State and Revolution"

Under Capitalism, they are its privileged knights that try to deflect and control, if not defend directly its image as "the only option", who have their incentive in doing so, with their class status stake being in their duty to shepherd the means of production and its resulting benefits

However, they don't own the means of production, as they merely manage it for the landholding, industrialist, and financier capitalists

On the other hand, under Socialism, while its privileges will be probably be done away, the PM class on its own would innovated upon, for their new duty of overseeing, managing, and reporting the collectivized cooperatives and state-owned enterprises..

Until the final stage of Communism arrives, I think they're pretty handy

I say this, because I hear such disgusted sentiment in Hexbear against them

Note: I know a bit about the bazingo techbro culture that the PMC is associated with, please don't criticize them solely on those vibes...

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[-] davel@hexbear.net 38 points 8 months ago

Some of us have such disgust for the PMC because we are the PMC. We know our peers, and we’re frustrated with their seemingly unassailable, pigheaded lack of class consciousness.

[-] Nakoichi@hexbear.net 20 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

This is the sense I get here, especially considering the number of donations to the Chunka Luta org I suspect come from that same disgusted crowd that seek to do something good with their privilege and comfort.

So as to the question "Are they inherently reactionary?" Well no, that suggests some inborn or innate characteristics which Marxism generally rejects. They are simply often acting out of concern for their own material class interests even if at the end of the day many of them are still being exploited precisely because of their lack of class consciousness or lack of solidarity with more precarious workers.

[-] deathtoreddit@lemmygrad.ml 3 points 8 months ago

By inherently reactionary, I mean its within their class interests, so to speak...

[-] SacredExcrement@hexbear.net 11 points 8 months ago

Yep.

Business school is also very...enlightening

[-] Yurt_Owl@hexbear.net 30 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

No, because there's no clear definition of what a PMC is. Everyone has their own definition in mind, many would consider me a PMC yet I would consider the asshole managers above me PMC, some would consider the shift manager of a retail job PMC. The definition is way too loose to be useful and almost feels like am alternative for the "middle class" a class that does infact not exist nor has a concrete definition and is more a vibe.

The effects of exploitation are the same regardless of anyone in the working class. The difference being the effects of that exploitation have a delay to what would be considered PMC as opposed to those already maximally exploited. But it's happening, companies all over the world are shedding staff with impunity, teams are downsizing, performance metrics being enforced. When I joined software dev I already jumped in at min wage tiny team and unpaid overtime. Where i am now the same is happening, downsizing of teams, increase of work, having to hold multiple roles and unpaid overtime. No one is immune to exploitation and the capital owners are too fucking greedy to not take everything from everyone. Just that PMC are somewhat easier to propagandise in the current moment cos they have enough money to have a smug sense of superiority. But thats not gonna last long.

[-] Great_Leader_Is_Dead@hexbear.net 10 points 8 months ago

some would consider the shift manager of a retail job PMC

The true proletariat 17 year old cashiers making $16 an hour need to rise up against their true oppressors! The PMC 26 year old making $19 and hour who mostly drives a forklift but also listens to customers complain that their coupons don't work on the phone for 30 minutes straight!

[-] Yurt_Owl@hexbear.net 3 points 8 months ago

Boomer who can't use the self checkout: GET ME THE MANAGER

The manager: agony-deep

[-] ReadFanon@hexbear.net 2 points 8 months ago

Yeah, there's definitely a late capitalist "managerialization" of labour at play here.

A century ago there were far fewer management roles and there'd be a better argument for a PMC distinction when there were the working masses in a factory or a mine and then a small handful of managers at most, although even then this is not a materialist take and I'd prefer to conceptualise it as a stratum within capitalist classes (much like the iffy "precariat" label) than as an actual class in itself.

These days the role of a manager is expanded to diffuse responsibility and accountability downwards - if your shift supervisor "manager" is the one who is the hatchet man who is essentially pushed into a position where they are coerced into enforcing unwritten policy on wage theft then the company gets all the benefits from wage theft while holding none of the responsibility for it because they can just blame the "manager" for violating written policy and fire them for it.

(Anyone who was worked entry-level jobs, especially in customer service and food service roles, knows that there's the explicit written policy which is almost always in line with legislation but there's implict policy which routinely violates labour laws, occupational health & safety laws etc. but this is just one example. Upper management creates conditions where it's impossible to meet all the demands without cutting corners and yet they've figured out a way to wash their hands of any responsibility because it's all implication and workplace culture but none of it is authorised by upper management or inked in policy proper.)

Then, as you've mentioned, today's pseudo-manager can be exploited for unpaid overtime and all in exchange for a full-time job and a minor pay bump in their hourly rate, which invariably ends up either a wash or an effective pay cut when considering all the hours they work.

[-] Yurt_Owl@hexbear.net 2 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

These days the role of a manager is expanded to diffuse responsibility and accountability downwards - if your shift supervisor "manager" is the one who is the hatchet man who is essentially pushed into a position where they are coerced into enforcing unwritten policy on wage theft then the company gets all the benefits from wage theft while holding none of the responsibility for it because they can just blame the "manager" for violating written policy and fire them for it.

I like this bit. Doesn't help that most promotions in a company are only for manager roles. Now some managers are just dicks who absolutely enjoy the little power they hold but others I know are barely holding on by a thread and hate what they do yet are trapped because they made commitments through long term loans.

The only route made to try and escape poverty and wage labour seems to only be granted the gun to shoot your fellow worker on behalf of the capitalist for a few extra slices of bread.

I think its a topic worth writing about with proper thinking and research moreso to analyse the dynamics of the modern working class rather than pin a target on a group.

[-] ReadFanon@hexbear.net 2 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

And really, this is just the tip of the iceberg of a phenomenon that I don't think has a name yet.

This diffusion of responsibility downwards while still holding virtually all of the chips which is implemented alongside a sort of crabs-in-a-bucket model of managing people who aspire for more (or maybe just aspire for a decent education, home ownership, healthcare, and a reasonable retirement).

I know I'm being vague in what I'm describing but, as an example, this same sort of program has been carried out in lots of countries in the privatisation of retirement funds. It used to be that the company you worked for would pay for your retirement, then the government started taking up that role, and since then there's a strong trend towards employee and/or employer retirement contributions going into mutual funds.

These mutual funds mean that the average prole's economic wellbeing is inextricably linked to the performance of the stock market and yet with all of that responsibility comes virtually no power - BlackRock is probably the best example of how that power is still wielded at the top in the service of capital, even if it's the workers' funds ostensibly.

You want a good retirement, chump?

Well, you just have to sell your soul to the devil that is late capitalism and become increasingly involved in the exploitation of your fellow workers because the better the stock market does at extracting surplus value and screwing over the workers, the better your retirement will be but know that in doing so you're enabling BlackRock buying up investment properties which only drives up the cost of living for all workers and which puts home ownership ever further out of reach for your fellow proles and for future generations. (Of course this is only a small slice of the market manipulation that a company like BlackRock engages in too.)

Idk. It's like a sort of pseudo-enfranchisement or something.

If you take a historical long view of this, what's playing out right now is what the evolutionary socialists and fabianists had always desired - the gradual evolution of the economy so that everyone has more representation in power structures and economic processes. Except those types have always overlooked the fact that the house always wins; the interests of the bourgeoisie and capital didn't just concede ground and allow for people to actually have more power, instead it simply rearranged the order of things so that more of the burden of responsibility could be shifted onto the proles with little-to-no changes to the overarching power structure.

This is also what happens a lot in prison systems with the most obvious example being of "kapos"; comprador Nazi concentration camp inmates who turned on their fellow inmates to become functionaries of the concentration camps themselves, overseeing stuff like forced labour for tiny concessions and no ability to influence the power structure itself (i.e. the kapo had authority over fellow inmates so they had some measure of power to speak of but their ability to influence any change in the system of concentration camps or Nazi Germany itself was entirely non-existent.)

...maybe it could be called coopting workers into being the henchmen for capital, or something?

[-] Dolores@hexbear.net 29 points 8 months ago

hokum terminology that's as vibes-based and unhelpful as 'middle class'.

[-] deathtoreddit@lemmygrad.ml 2 points 8 months ago

I mean, it is a technical term that describes its role within

That being said, I guess it has to be more specific...

[-] Dolores@hexbear.net 4 points 8 months ago

most people do not use it according to its original discription, or their prescriptions are completely out of step with that analysis. here's an article that basically explains the development/discourse on the term (but concludes its still worthwhile in its original form)

but even when you go to the effort of making that original, well-defined argument for PMC, i'm still in favour of the older concepts that don't have to do strained taxonomies of contradictions rather than simply describing them

[-] spectre@hexbear.net 22 points 8 months ago

I see "professional managerial class" as a liberal term rather than a Marxist one, and I don't think it's particularly useful to start a discussion around.

[-] AssortedBiscuits@hexbear.net 15 points 8 months ago

I don't find categorizing certain strata of the working class for the sake of categorization to be meaningful. The ultimate point of distinguishing different strata is to provide a general guideline of prioritizing which strata would be more receptive towards agiprop and should be a prime target for being organized. With this in mind, it should be clear that workers earning minimum wage or less would be more receptive towards building worker power through worker organization than a bunch of overpaid clerical workers all other things being equal. However, to say that the so-called PMC (really labor aristocrats) are inherently reactionary is to say that all forms of labor aristocrat organization must be dismantled because reactionaries should be deprived of political power, which comes out of organization. In other words, to say labor aristocrats are inherently reactionary is to say that a software dev union should be treated in the exact same way as a pig union or a Pinkerton branch or an oil cartel or the MIC, which would be an absolutely wild thing to say. You definitely could have a hypothetical software dev union that proves itself to be reactionary to the point where the Pinkertons beating the shit out of those union members are the lesser of two evil, but as a general rule? Of course not.

[-] m532@hexbear.net 14 points 8 months ago

So thats what they mean when they say PMC. But I will continue reading PMC as "private military contractor".

[-] CannotSleep420@lemmygrad.ml 12 points 8 months ago

They're only inherently reactionary if they're DSA Karens.

[-] RyanGosling@hexbear.net 11 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

Yes. Seeing the amount of abuse and overwork my parents endure as blue collar workers, and working in retail and manual labor myself during school, I would choose being a useless PMC sitting in a cubicle for 8 hours any day.

The software industry is notorious for being the most cocky and often times most privileged out of the ‘ordinary’ careers, so suggesting to organize is taboo.

[-] Tankiedesantski@hexbear.net 7 points 8 months ago

PMC employees are also not immune to being exploited, especially at junior levels. Not unheard of for junior lawyers, bankers, consultants, etc to have heart attacks or literally drop dead from overwork.

I'm not trying to draw an equivalence since blue collar workers are exploited in more physically harmful ways and don't have the eventual benefits of high wages. However, while fatcat PMCs who do nothing all day certainly exist, for each one of them there are dozens or hundreds of junior workers killing themselves to climb the ladder.

[-] Zodiark@hexbear.net 8 points 8 months ago

Chicken and egg situation. It's more likely that reactionaries are drawn to those positions if they lack capital to live passively off of but enough wealth, borrowed or inherited, to pursue professional training and education.

PMCs in politics are more likely to be reactionaries since they understand their social and class privileges stem from capitalist exploitation and status quo power relations rather than creating mass politics. e.g: Corbyn's Labour camp undermine him to his own detriment, or Kyrsten Sinema being a social worker before being a US senator.

Ironically, it is these people that also make revolution possible and happen. These professionals are compensated so well because they are the very administrators of capital, of empire, of the machines of production, distribution, and consumption. If they lose faith in the system, not necessarily by a crisis of conscience, but by which means they no longer see a viable future for themselves and their kin/progeny/colleagues, then revolutionary moments gain the possibility of becoming realized and fulfilled.

Which is why the state also increases its own powers to monitor, spy, and repress when targeting dissidents and enforcing internal discipline.

[-] SovietWaveGoddess@hexbear.net 8 points 8 months ago

No, it depends on the state. Although you will have to purge the previous bureaucracy.

[-] pumpchilienthusiast@hexbear.net 7 points 8 months ago

yes they is

[-] CliffordBigRedDog@hexbear.net 5 points 8 months ago

yes and i think we should all be killed

[-] stigsbandit34z@hexbear.net 1 points 8 months ago
[-] ReadFanon@hexbear.net 1 points 8 months ago

The PMC strata is very inclined towards petit-bourgeois class consciousness, and perhaps even PB aspirations, but it really depends on how far down you go on the level of "management"; upper management? Definitely. Shift supervisors with the title of manager? Much less so.

this post was submitted on 02 Jan 2024
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