pro-russian neolib to pro-european neolib, looks like basically nothing changed in hungary... I even checked if any left parties were doing numbers, and... nope. looks like it's status-quo in Hungary again, I guess...?

[–] WideningGyro@hexbear.net 14 points 16 hours ago (3 children)

Take this with as many grains of salt you want, but I have a Hungarian friend who is at least sympathetic to communism, and while he would under no normal circumstances ever like someone a zionist neolib like Magyar, but even he is celebrating right now. It's not that Magyar is good, but rather that outsiders struggle to understand the depth of corruption and depravity that was the Orbán regime. Seeing someone systematically dismantle every institution in your country while powerless to stop it is pretty traumatic. And Magyar has even promised to set up a committee to prosecute corruption in the previous government, perhaps even Orbán himself (although like Trump, I'll believe it when I see it).

Anyway, I guess my point is that for Hungarians things did change, and you can't fault them for being optimistic right now. It remains to be seen if this is just going to be a Trump-Biden-Trump dynamic, or if the Magyar government can actually make meaningful changes to ensure this kind of takeover can't happen again (big if).

[–] space_comrade@hexbear.net 12 points 15 hours ago (3 children)

It's not that Magyar is good, but rather that outsiders struggle to understand the depth of corruption and depravity that was the Orbán regime.

I'm from a certain neighboring country of Hungary and with a fairly similar political situation and I can say libs in these east/southeast European countries tend to exaggerate how much of a problem corruption really is. Their worldview is incapable of a holistic analysis of human civilization so all problems of a country must come internally, whether that's corruption, an evil oppressive "dictator", a vague notion of "culture" or whatever else they think of.

I don't believe anything is significantly going to change for Hungary other than the foreign politics.

[–] Oskolki@hexbear.net 7 points 15 hours ago

People often confuse liberalism for corruption.

Hiring cheaper labor from abroad is not corruption, this is normal. Not investing into people is not corruption, this is normal, you're supposed to invest into profit. When will people understand?

Stop giving a shit about human life if you want to live in liberalism, that includes your own. Fall behind, stay behind, no one's coming for you. That is normal, this is not corruption. We are but meat sacks running to the finish line, that's all we are.

[–] 0__0@hexbear.net 6 points 15 hours ago

True, and if this genius even attempts to null the contract with Russia when it comes to natural gas and halt oil imports, Hungarians will be singing Orban's praises. These people genuinely think that some kind of bourgeois democracy and the "rule of law" (as if the law is the 10 fucking commandments brought down by god and not a list of rules made by capitalists to reinforce the status quo) matter as much as the economic base.

Also, I just saw this moron suggest Hungary adopt the Euro LMAO. Yes, hop on the sinking ship, give up your monetary sovereignty to own Orban!

[–] WideningGyro@hexbear.net 4 points 15 hours ago (1 children)

I'm not sure I get that position. It's a material fact that astounding amounts of wealth have been siphoned out of the Hungarian state and into the pockets of Orbán and a selection of his cronies. It's also a material fact that Hungary's democratic institutions (which, yeah, liberal democracy - were never great to begin with) have been systematically hollowed out to the point that it is a genuine shock for my friend that the supreme court (which has been packed with Orbán toadies) didn't overturn the election. I don't think it's exaggeration to believe that beginning to revert either of these facts will benefit the Hungarian working class - even if they are just reverting to what is essentially status quo in many European countries.

I'm not particularly optimistic about Magyar either. And I'm painfully aware that an incumbent has real little incentive to undo constitutional changes that benefit the incumbent. He also faces an uphill battle against hostile courts, media etc. and it's possible he'll have his hands tied. We'll see. I think Hungarians can have cautious optimism about having ended 16 years of high-handed kleptocracy, as a treat.

[–] space_comrade@hexbear.net 1 points 1 hour ago

It's a material fact that astounding amounts of wealth have been siphoned out of the Hungarian state and into the pockets of Orbán and a selection of his cronies.

What's the difference between the wealth being siphoned by national bourgeoisie cronies or foreign multinational cronies? Neoliberalism is the ideology of corruption, it's inevitable either way.

It's also a material fact that Hungary's democratic institutions (which, yeah, liberal democracy - were never great to begin with) have been systematically hollowed out to the point that it is a genuine shock for my friend that the supreme court (which has been packed with Orbán toadies) didn't overturn the election.

So, uh, they haven't really been that deeply compromised after all? I think your friend bought into opposition propaganda, same thing is happening in my country, they like to portray our ruling party as this greatest evil that ever befell the nation when in reality when they were in power once or twice they didn't really do anything significantly differently, our policy was largely dictated by more powerful European nations either way.

[–] sodium_nitride@hexbear.net 2 points 15 hours ago (1 children)

Don't orban contacts own much of the media ecosystem in hungary? If the magyar admin doesn't do anything about that, it probably might end up being a nothing ever happens situation. Besides of course Hungary joining sanctions against Russia and making things worse.

[–] WideningGyro@hexbear.net 3 points 14 hours ago (1 children)

Yes, and various institutions are packed with Orbán men - a few years ago a supreme court justice (iirc) apologized to Orbán after slapping Fidesz with a symbolic fine for breaching election campaign rules, literally groveling in public. It's definitely possible that the new government is going to have it's hands tied behind its back. But I don't think it's a given that Orbán can maintain loyalty among his people once his hand is off the money spigot.

But yeah, I don't want to give the impression that I'm super optimistic about this. Magyar's positions on Israel and Russia are same and worse, respectively. But domestically, I think it would be out of touch to blame the Hungarian working class for celebrating that their public and EU funds might now find more productive use than solely lining the pockets of a handful of kleptocrats. Don't get me wrong - all liberal governments do this to some extent, but there are levels to this.