this post was submitted on 22 May 2025
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chapotraphouse

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[–] duderium@hexbear.net 3 points 7 hours ago* (last edited 7 hours ago)

Before I even read this article I just want to say that I read hundreds of pages of bleak house, but couldn’t finish it because I just thought it was really boring.

Edit: okay I’m reading the article now. I always liked the beginning of bleak house though. It’s depressing that so few people seemingly have the ability to enjoy it.

Spoiler alert, but I remember that there’s a character in this novel who proves he can read by writing a single word on a chalkboard, and then later in the novel he just randomly explodes, I think.

[–] BodyBySisyphus@hexbear.net 20 points 17 hours ago* (last edited 4 hours ago) (6 children)

I feel like I've encountered this phenomenon enough times to discern a pattern but not enough to figure out what's going on. The phenomenon is this: some medium blogger gets linked on here writing a fairly cohesive critique of Americans and I click on some of their other posts to discover their politics are a little off.

In this case I can't tell you if Iron Council is tendentious and bad but I'm really wondering where the hell this brainwave is coming from:

What constitutes “right-wing art” — which is, by the way, labeling we’re grafting onto this thing after the fact, so it’s actually a very flimsy labeling, but what these pieces of work are doing is telling the truth about the world in a way that is not compromised by artistic or ideological preferences about how these events and these characters and these people, what society wishes were true about these people. My thing is that if you are telling the truth about the world, then you are going to make right-wing art. We don’t want to make the same mistake the left did by insisting that art satisfy our political priors. This will distort our creative undertakings in all sorts of ways that will reduce the quality of art and therefore reduce its cultural power (and therefore its political power). Instead, all a new cultural right has to do is tell the truth.

In conclusion, yes I think literacy and reading comprehension are in crisis but on the other hand the author of this blog is a weirdo.

[–] Carcharodonna@hexbear.net 2 points 1 hour ago* (last edited 1 hour ago)

Yeah the article just screamed "right-wing libertarian elitist who writes about how he's so much smarter than the unwashed masses in order to make him feel better about his numerous social failures". Interesting to see that my gut instinct on this wasn't wrong.

[–] Real_User@hexbear.net 4 points 5 hours ago (1 children)

Yeah his article about why married women should be more grateful about getting to do more housework is so dishonest. He's criticizing a different substack article, insisting that his carefully selected quote isn't leaving anything important out. He immediately just straight up lies about what's in the rest of the article. Soon after, he cites one study, using two charts from it and conveniently neglecting to mention that the rest of the study he's leaving out refutes his argument.

Can't trust a conservative, folks! classic

[–] BodyBySisyphus@hexbear.net 4 points 3 hours ago* (last edited 3 hours ago)

Wow, that opening paragraph is setting off the "do not let this couple corner you at a party" klaxon.

My wife inhabits a corner of the internet almost entirely disjoint from my own, the woman part. I get youtube recommendations for wood working and speed runs, she sees makeup tips and fashion. Every site or app that’s even a little algorithmic shows this same basic pattern, keyed in part by our demographic data but more by our patterns of attention. This site is no exception, and she regularly sees and forwards essays to me that may as well come from another planet in terms of how far they are away from my algorithmic cluster. Sharing these gendered feeds with each other is a great source of topics for the never-ending conversation we’ve been having since the day we met.

[–] PapaEmeritusIII@hexbear.net 4 points 6 hours ago

political priors

mgs-alert Rationalism brainworm spotted!

[–] duderium@hexbear.net 4 points 7 hours ago

This is why Heinlein was artistically correct to spend so much time in Starship Troopers ranting about how spanking kids is good, actually.

[–] buh@hexbear.net 6 points 9 hours ago (2 children)
[–] BodyBySisyphus@hexbear.net 2 points 3 hours ago

No political priors here, just pure, unvarnished da troof. And virtuoso musical styling to boot. Speaking of which, remember Toby Keith?

[–] HexReplyBot@hexbear.net 1 points 9 hours ago

I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:

[–] HarryLime@hexbear.net 9 points 16 hours ago (1 children)

This is the only piece of this author I've read and didn't check anything else they wrote

[–] BodyBySisyphus@hexbear.net 9 points 15 hours ago

I'm not blaming you or anything, I'm just kinda intrigued that it keeps happening.

[–] 2812481591@hexbear.net 9 points 15 hours ago

I'll be honest, I only read this article to make sure I was literate. Can report, I am one of the smarty pants who can read Bleak House. this system of measuring literacy by levels 1-5 seems most common in Britain, and the test was done on Americans at two Kansas universities. The Dicken's passages seem to contain some culturally specific clues, though would the results be an different if they used Melville instead of Dickens? Maybe not.

Level 5 Literacy is basically the same, but across multiple sources at once while being critical: "Adults can search for, and integrate, information across multiple, dense texts; construct syntheses of similar and contrasting ideas or points of view; or evaluate evidence based arguments. Adults understand subtle, rhetorical cues and can make high-level inferences or use specialised background knowledge."

I expect this competency to be demonstrated by a graduate with a Bachelor degree, this sort of literacy is equally important in STEM. I think my friends when I studied Engineering could do it, but I was friends with strivers, and I met a lot of idiots in random assigned group projects, and they graduated in the same class as me.

[–] Nakoichi@hexbear.net 56 points 22 hours ago* (last edited 22 hours ago) (8 children)

This explains a lot of the behavior of the lost libs that stumble in here like the guy yesterday demanding exhaustive sources and when provided with such simply said "I ain't reading all that".

More than 80% of Americans are functionally illiterate

And it's by design. An Underground History of Education in America is an interesting book on the historical players involved. And guess who the main ones are (hint: it's capitalists).

[–] Horse@lemmygrad.ml 8 points 16 hours ago (1 children)

to expand on this, according to PIAAC, 1 in 5 yankees cannot reliably answer questions of this level

[–] sexywheat@hexbear.net 8 points 14 hours ago* (last edited 14 hours ago)

I'm sorry what

Edit: How is this possible, I mean

[–] doleo@lemmy.one 30 points 22 hours ago (8 children)

I ain’t reading all that

Is the kind of anti-intellectualism that I'm seeing plastered all over the internet. Maybe it's confirmation bias on my part, but I swear that people are getting increasingly pissed off with having to read anything.

I was watching a streamer the other day, and the chat was spamming "UP" every time someone chatted more than 3 lines. They were reveling in it.

[–] simontherockjohnson@lemmy.ml 13 points 20 hours ago (3 children)

Is the kind of anti-intellectualism that I’m seeing plastered all over the internet. Maybe it’s confirmation bias on my part, but I swear that people are getting increasingly pissed off with having to read anything.

I think this strain of anti-intellectualism is actually a lot better than what we had in Bush II.

The strain is passively anti-intellectual, not aggressive like the Bush II years. I think that a large portion of it especially from younger folks is really about the fact that the doors are closing, and that being curious or educated doesn't actually benefit you in the way that it used to. In essence Bush II anti-intellectualism was based in a perceived slight. It was a "oh you think you're better than me?". Conversely, "I ain't reading all that" to me is more of an admission of intellectual capacity mattering less in people's daily lives.

They very much lines up with elite over reproduction, and the labor crisis that's happening globally including in AES countries like China where they have a huge unemployment issue with recent graduates. I think it's reasonable (but ultimately wrong headed) to deduce based on what's happening in the world that education isn't an unalloyed good. It's expensive, it's difficult, it doesn't have the same economic benefits it did 10 years ago let alone 20 or 30, and it makes you feel bad about yourself and the state of the world.

Intellectualism has been sold as a means to and end, rather than something intrinsically valuable, so it's not a surprise that the foreclosure of the future is leading people to anti-intellectual conclusions.

[–] doleo@lemmy.one 2 points 10 hours ago

I think this is an interesting perspective, thanks for sharing. It reminds me of the bill hicks bit he did about sitting in a cafe and being asked, “why are you reading?”.

While I think your ideas about the motivations of younger people are very plausible, I’m not so sure that the slightly older generations ever lost this aggressive habit.

Again, I was watching something the other day, and the streamer was getting angry about an online commentator because they were sat in front of a full book case.

Anyway, I’m not disagreeing with anything you said, I’d overlooked the context that some people have arrived at these feelings by. I would say, though, that the spread of people online is greater than ever before. So there’s a chance to run into a wide variety of different positions. Including men raging at book cases!

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[–] Self_Sealing_Stem_Bolt@hexbear.net 21 points 22 hours ago (1 children)

More than 80% of Americans are functionally illiterate

Westerners. Kanada isn't any better. And "ai" is making it so much worse.

[–] GoodGuyWithACat@hexbear.net 21 points 21 hours ago (1 children)
[–] Sleve_McDichael@hexbear.net 28 points 20 hours ago (1 children)

smdh even Hexbears are falling behind in their Maoist Standard English proficiency

[–] DragonBallZinn@hexbear.net 3 points 7 hours ago

SSorry, I need to read more booKKK$.

[–] iie@hexbear.net 17 points 21 hours ago

in that guy's case imo it was more psychological shutdown than a reading issue.

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[–] Homer_Simpson@hexbear.net 18 points 19 hours ago (1 children)
[–] Chana@hexbear.net 12 points 17 hours ago (3 children)

So muddy it makes you think of dinosaurs.

I'm a good writer.

[–] buckykat@hexbear.net 9 points 14 hours ago

Specifically, being muddy makes you think of dinosaurs because scientists of your time hadn't figured out plate tectonics yet so your idea of the history of the earth was a weird mix of early paleontology and bible stories.

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[–] DefinitelyNotAPhone@hexbear.net 22 points 21 hours ago (8 children)

Dickens feels like an odd choice to display functional illiteracy, given that while it's technically written in modern English it's also marred with the cultural baggage of Victorian England; "wonderful," for example, is meant in this passage to mean that it produces awe or astonishment, but that's not how the word is used by anyone in modern times. The dinosaur portion is part of a larger metaphor using Noah's Ark which is only really going to pop to someone with decent familiarity with Christian mythology, and worded in a way that still takes someone literate a moment to digest and understand it.

I'm not entirely sure the form of the study helps either; most of the responses seem like they threw a passage at an undergrad and immediately demanded their interpretation in a clinical (read: atypical and somewhat uncomfortable compared to normal reading) setting. How many of the readers would have re-parsed the passage given another moment or two and understood it? Furthermore, the opening passage isn't even particularly important to the plot, and it seems like the vast majority of people reading understood at the very least that "it was a shitty morning in London" is the point here. Is that functional illiteracy, or simply skimming purple prose that isn't all the relevant to the story?

This example feels only a little removed from laughing at undergrads for not understanding why Homer spent so goddamn long in the Iliad charting random Greek soldiers' entire family trees only to kill them off a breath afterwards, and calling them illiterate for not grasping cultural context from literal antiquity.

[–] Carl@hexbear.net 10 points 17 hours ago* (last edited 17 hours ago)

I read the linked study, they weren't testing for immediate comprehension, but rather what tools a reader will utilize and how much effort they were willing to put in before giving up. The testees had access to the internet to look up phrases and titles that they didn't understand, and as far as I can tell there was no time limit. The "problematic" group included people who thought that there was meant to be a literal dinosaur walking around in the mud, and like half of the people in it never figured out that the setting was a court of chancery.

[–] buh@hexbear.net 12 points 20 hours ago (2 children)

I figured the dinosaur thing was meant to allude to primordial or primitive imagery, but I wouldn't have guessed it had to do with something like noah's ark

[–] Chana@hexbear.net 13 points 17 hours ago

"The waters" is still a common way among Christian nerds to refer to the deluge, i.e. God's most famous genocide. But only among the worst nerds.

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[–] LGOrcStreetSamurai@hexbear.net 25 points 21 hours ago

Honestly, doing any amount of reading will put you a solid 50% ahead of literally anyone in any industry. I am in computers and I genuinely think that most computer science majors didn’t do any of the reading whatsoever. It’s becoming abundantly more clear as I’m going back for my masters that of my class of say 20 maybe seven actually read part of our required reading.

[–] Guamer@hexbear.net 6 points 17 hours ago

Not shocking for a country where education isn't exactly prioritized.

[–] PKMKII@hexbear.net 22 points 22 hours ago (3 children)

Like this subject, most of the problematic readers were not concerned if their literal translations of Bleak House were not coherent, so obvious logical errors never seemed to affect them. In fact, none of the readers in this category ever questioned their own interpretations of figures of speech, no matter how irrational the results.

This is the more troubling bit than not recognizing archaic English (I get why the one kid assumed Michaelmas was a name). Not being able to recognize that one has presented a contradictory argument speaks to a severe deficit in reasoning. I’m not sure if that’s a failure of education or a reflection of a society that presents introspection and self-criticism as weakness.

However, I do want to push back a little on this:

In the end, the lesson is clear: if we teachers in the university ignore our students’ actual reading levels, we run the risk of passing out diplomas to students who have not mastered reading complex texts and who, as a result, might find that their literacy skills prevent them from achieving their professional goals and personal dreams.

This begs the question, what are the professional goals that are stymied by not being able to deconstruct Dickensian prose? Is this something that major publishing houses care about when hiring people? If these kids are able to graduate and then go on to have successful careers despite being below what’s considered “standard,” is it possible that the standard is simply irrelevant to “real world” demands? That these kids are simply prioritizing what their “professional goals” demand rather than being incompetent?

[–] Parsani@hexbear.net 21 points 21 hours ago (1 children)

With your last point, I think there is a massive disconnect between how the university views its purpose, and what the society the students graduate into actually is. Of course the major publishers don't care if you can deconstruct Dickens, they pay millions of dollars for trite ghost written crap because it sells.

Arguably if you are an English major, you should leave with the ability to read dense texts, including archaic ones, but I don't really blame the students for seeing that it doesn't really matter because society at large does not care and they will graduate whether they can parse Dickens or not.

This all just results in a less literate society though, and I think that's a net negative overall.

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[–] ThermonuclearEgg@hexbear.net 17 points 21 hours ago* (last edited 21 hours ago)

I get why the one kid assumed Michaelmas was a name

Just to force Hexbears to learn what it is, Michaelmas is the festival of Saint Michael on September 29th, and thus Michaelmas Term refers to a (university) fall semester.

[–] BodyBySisyphus@hexbear.net 6 points 17 hours ago (1 children)

If your professional goals are becoming an English professor (which is what most English professors assume an English major should want), then this is definitely a barrier.

Otherwise, eh. I think colleges have become too vocationally focused and everyone's trying to put a dollar value on being able to understand and interpret the human condition in way that goes beyond Fascism's bland and flattened take on the concrete and coming up empty, and then trying to figure out how to dress up what they're doing as important to The Machinery so they can keep getting their grant money.

[–] PKMKII@hexbear.net 8 points 15 hours ago (1 children)

There’s a cognitive dissonance where academia can’t decide if it’s for white collar vocational training or for intellectual pursuit to further society and individuals. So we end up with this sort of half baked of one, not quite there of the other situation.

[–] BodyBySisyphus@hexbear.net 4 points 15 hours ago

And then in reality it's neither, it's a bunch of people drawing faulty conclusions from bad data.

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