this post was submitted on 23 Apr 2025
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[–] sureok@lemmy.sdf.org 32 points 5 hours ago (5 children)

I transitioned to male 15 years ago, I was already well into adulthood by that time so had experience to compare. 100% agree with the post. It was night and day. (I'm not in Stem; just generally in life.)

The weirdest thing was some of the individual people who changed how they treat me over time, for the better. After I started transitioning. Its cool they are so trans positive and affirming I guess. But if you can turn that shit on like a tap why not do for everyone?

Now as a man I struggle to notice when I'm getting special treatment. Even with my prior experience. Sometimes I have been oblivious for years until I finally clocked it or it was pointed out by a woman.

It has made me much more respect cis men who manage to have a keen eye on sexism. Especially those who are masc presenting. It is so easy to not notice. It's very comfortable. People are polite. You have good luck. To all the guys commenting here that it doesn't go on around them: it sure as fuck does.

[–] andros_rex@lemmy.world 4 points 1 hour ago

I think people get defense around the idea of “male privilege” because they think it’s getting them something extra. It’s more all of the shit you don’t have to deal with.

[–] zarkanian@sh.itjust.works 5 points 4 hours ago

But if you can turn that shit on like a tap why not do for everyone?

I would think because they aren't aware of it.

[–] fossilesque@mander.xyz 5 points 4 hours ago* (last edited 4 hours ago) (1 children)

Sometimes we should just, I dk, listen to what people that have different experiences to us say. I figure, I have no idea what it is like to question my gender, so maybe I should shut the fuck up and listen to what people who do tell me. The problem is, a lot of men do not listen.

Is there one gender friendlier to trans people? Just wondering. I feel like women may be, but that is my bias from my attitude towards men lol.

[–] sureok@lemmy.sdf.org 5 points 4 hours ago

shut the fuck up and listen

But dont need to turn off your brain. There are plenty of dumb trans people out there and you can find a trans person to represent any position.

Is there one gender friendlier to trans people?

I doubt it. It depends. I mean, women are friendlier, in general. It depends. And trans men are more likely to be "passing" living stealth. So its a different thing. I hardly know what anyone thinks of trans people unless I ask, because 99% of interactions I have are as presumed cis.

One thing I know is that everyone loves men. Cis men, trans men, doesnt matter. People value men. This is why all kinds of anti trans horseshit specifically targets trans women. In the UK recently there was a ruling about the definition of "woman" as it relates to trans women. But no definition of "man". Why! Why are only women subject to such shit. Trans men are implicitly pulled in and adversely affected but women are the ones who have the law about their bodies.

[–] Guns0rWeD13@lemmy.world 1 points 4 hours ago (1 children)

preach. it is for reasons such as what you stated that i fully give my blessing to women transitioning to men. level the playing field by any means necessary. this is survival.

i try to embrace my male archetype because i think the worlds needs strong men, but i have come to understand the feminist perspective and i don't think there's any conflict with masculine men being empathetic. as a matter of fact, i think a truly confident man doesn't need to worry about being vulnerable and is in touch with their feelings. the macho american culture is not who we are. it is an aberration directly resulting from abrahamic religious values being hijacked by sociopaths to pave the way for authoritarianism and further subjugation of women.

and i think it's up to all of us to break these insecure macho idiots down into kneeling before a new age of humanity. make them heel to understand that they were weaklings all along.

[–] sureok@lemmy.sdf.org 7 points 3 hours ago (1 children)

Just to be clear: women do not transition to men to level the playing field or materially benefit themselves.

Studies of post transition income show that trans women go down (sometimes drastically) whereas trans men tend to stay about where they would have been. You get benefits of being treated as male but then you have discrimination and other problems as a queer/trans person to balance it out. So while I can report on the moments when socially and structurally I am treated as a man, it isn't the total experience if my life. I still am trans. There are significant problems associated. I wouldn't reccomend it as a career enhancer. To say nothing of how unpleasant transitioning just in hopes of getting a raise would feel.

I agree with regards to masculinity.

[–] Guns0rWeD13@lemmy.world 2 points 1 hour ago

yes. you're right. i understand that it's more than that and that it's not really viable as an economic strategy, but i like to show support where i honestly can.

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[–] MITM0@lemmy.world 3 points 3 hours ago* (last edited 2 hours ago) (1 children)

Male's priviledge huh, that's new

Ah well welcome to a man's world, It's going to be really fun for you😂

[–] andros_rex@lemmy.world 6 points 1 hour ago

Unironically yes. As a male STEM student, I had a much easier time finding a study group, I didn’t feel singled out and isolated in my classes, and people took the things I said seriously.

It’s like magic when I go to the doctor - the second they find out a uterus, it’s like their whole body language changes.

[–] HalfSalesman@lemm.ee 15 points 6 hours ago* (last edited 6 hours ago) (1 children)

Transitioning to a point of passing in my understanding (mtf or ftm) comes with pros and cons.

I often think about this article as well when it comes to trans men's negative experiences once accepted as men: https://www.newsweek.com/trans-man-broken-men-1817169

[–] sureok@lemmy.sdf.org 3 points 4 hours ago (1 children)

Of course there are good and bad aspects to any choice.

Trans man here to say that nobody needs to give any extra cred to MRA bullshit just because a trans person is saying it. I have also been through the full dude experience including profound loneliness. I likewise thought I was prepared but wasn't. Its hard. I miss how things were before too.

I also know that in general, in 2025, all people are more isolated than 20 years ago. Furthermore, it is a known phenomena for a longtime that friendships are more difficult to cultivate as an adult. I doubt how different things would have turned out for me had I not transitioned.

I also know that the "distance" I now experience from women is a direct result of 20,000 years of patriarchal violence. Of course women relate to me as a potential threat; I am one. And without the presumed vulnerability I possessed as a woman, men relate accordingly. Of course.

At some point, as a trans guy, you need to stop leaning on your experience "as a former woman" to compare your life to, especially in the negative. Being 22 is not the same as 42 no matter what your gender presentation at any point. Many people experience nostalgia for their youth.

As a man, you get to feel safe, but you don't get to be a nurturer or nurtured. You can speak up whenever you want, but not about your emotions, fears, or grief. You have the freedom to do whatever you want whenever you want, as long as that doesn't involve anything feminine, which turns out to be many incredible things, like emotions, intentional parenting, grooming, baking, and so many other activities I've learned are too feminine.

Just as when cis guys make these complaints, I question this person's definition of "you dont get to". In fact the article describes him making a career out of doing so. Even specific instances of "going viral", and the affirmative feedback he received. It seems that you do get to.

Which leads to pointing out that the whole thing is an advertisment for the author who is "a Professional Corporate Speaker and Stress Management Coach".

And it has anti-trans hate material suggested items in the middle of it:

[–] HalfSalesman@lemm.ee 2 points 3 hours ago (1 children)

Trans man here to say that nobody needs to give any extra cred to MRA bullshit just because a trans person is saying it. I have also been through the full dude experience including profound loneliness. I likewise thought I was prepared but wasn’t. Its hard. I miss how things were before too.

I don't think the author was giving credit to MRA bullshit. MRA's seem to often hate women and I don't think the article implies any hatred, if anything he still tries to essentially that men are the ones that need to put in the effort to push past toxic masculinity. Describing it as a problem to be fixed at the individual level rather than at systematic level. Saying "If I could advise men, it would be first to look inward. "

I also know that in general, in 2025, all people are more isolated than 20 years ago. Furthermore, it is a known phenomena for a longtime that friendships are more difficult to cultivate as an adult. I doubt how different things would have turned out for me had I not transitioned.

Suicide rates differ for a reason. It is far more painful to be a lonely man than a lonely woman. Men are very quick to self loathing.

I also know that the “distance” I now experience from women is a direct result of 20,000 years of patriarchal violence. Of course women relate to me as a potential threat; I am one. And without the presumed vulnerability I possessed as a woman, men relate accordingly. Of course.

We should have fewer male babies. It seems like it'd reduce the amount of fear and alienation in society. (I'm saying this in good faith, I'm serious.)

At some point, as a trans guy, you need to stop leaning on your experience “as a former woman” to compare your life to, especially in the negative. Being 22 is not the same as 42 no matter what your gender presentation at any point. Many people experience nostalgia for their youth.

Based on my own reading/discourse, trans women usually seem to feel very little youth nostalgia in comparison. They might complain that they're older now, but that's usually more of a melancholy over "what could have been" had they been AFAB.

Just as when cis guys make these complaints, I question this person’s definition of “you dont get to”. In fact the article describes him making a career out of doing so. Even specific instances of “going viral”, and the affirmative feedback he received. It seems that you do get to.

I'm pretty sure he was talking about social pressures. Sure, he got to because he was very motivated to push against that societal expectation, that doesn't really mean that average men can get away with that unless they dedicate their whole career/life to it.

Which leads to pointing out that the whole thing is an advertisment for the author who is “a Professional Corporate Speaker and Stress Management Coach”.

I think calling it an advertisement is a stretch based only on that, but even if it was that doesn't invalidate the point being made.

And it has anti-trans hate material suggested items in the middle of it:

I think that's just because those are controversial yet related articles on Newsweek so their algorithm picked them. But yeah, those do seem to be especially trashy and obvious anti-trans articles. Its kind of gross that they ever ran on Newsweek to be honest...

[–] MITM0@lemmy.world 2 points 2 hours ago (2 children)

Trans people seem to have a knack for hating men huh.

We should have fewer male babies

Go on, try it there'll be no tolerance for people who advocate for this levels of evil

[–] sureok@lemmy.sdf.org 1 points 1 hour ago

Well there is plenty of tolerance for elon musk having zillions of only boy-assigned babies. So it isn't the concept of sex selection that leads to being universally regarded as evil. What else could it be?

[–] HalfSalesman@lemm.ee 2 points 2 hours ago* (last edited 2 hours ago)

Trans people seem to have a knack for hating men huh.

I'm not trans. I'm a cis male. (edit: well, mostly. TBH on a higher rational level I might as well be genderless, I'm a cis male by convenience)

Go on, try it there’ll be no tolerance for people who advocate for this levels of evil

Evil? I'm suggesting such not to punish males. Its to minimize loneliness and sadness in the world.

[–] Armand1@lemmy.world 35 points 9 hours ago

And yet, the Supreme Court in the UK claims that trans people shouldn't be afforded the same gender-based discrimination protections as their cis counterparts.

Discrimination is a social artifact, based on performed gender, not biological sex (whatever that means), as evidenced here.

[–] phoenixz@lemmy.ca 6 points 7 hours ago (5 children)

Is it me or is this a uniquely American experience?

I loved in quite a few countries and I've never seen this kind of absurd behavior. Granted, in a man, but I've never seen a man cut off a woman like that just because she's a woman, and I've never seen or heard comments even remotely about someone being "exotic". I've heard questions like "ohh, and where are you from?" in genuine curiosity, which is fine, I've never noticed overt racism like that.

[–] fossilesque@mander.xyz 7 points 4 hours ago* (last edited 4 hours ago)

lol no, I have had problems in the UK and Europe. The old world is extremely hierarchical and the older generations have some weird lingering quasi-religous gender issues.

[–] TheSambassador@lemmy.world 13 points 6 hours ago (1 children)

Sorry, but this sounds exactly like what male privilege is. Assuming that it doesn't happen near you because you haven't noticed it.

Ask your female friends what sorts of sexism they genuinely face regularly and I think you'll learn a lot.

[–] VitoRobles@lemmy.today 1 points 4 hours ago

This is why I learned to stfu about experiences I don't understand.

I say that as a person of color trying to explain my perspective and be given deer-in-headlights responses, or worse, dismissal and denial.

[–] ace_of_based@sh.itjust.works 9 points 6 hours ago* (last edited 6 hours ago)

Granted, i'm a man

you haven't noticed racism and sexism because you are a male who's the "proper color" for the region in which you reside.

male privilege and white privilege are often misunderstood to mean like "special privileges" and poopoo'd because plenty of white men struggle to get by in this world, but that's not what it means.

it means the privilege of 'being taken seriously', the privilege of 'benefit is the doubt', privilege of 'basic respect and decency'.

it also has the benefit/drawback of 'privilege to be blind of misogyny/racism'. I believe you wholeheartedly when you say you've never seen it, but that's the "privilege".

The responsibility you hold in return for this "privilege" is you must believe the words of peeps who don't share this "privilege" when they tell you their experiences. after all, why would you see these things? How else would you experience them when you aren't directly a part of them?

'course you wouldn't! That's fine! Normal! why would you see them? those things aren't directed at you. that's really all the "privilege" is!

back to responsibility, be careful not to dismiss the words of people who have direct experiences of racism and sexism just because they don't match your own. remember, these things aren't directed at you!

have a good one

[–] Reddfugee42@lemmy.world 7 points 7 hours ago (1 children)

Lol not from what I've heard about Italy

[–] phoenixz@lemmy.ca 2 points 6 hours ago

I lived in Mexico, arguably worse macho-wise, and even there men didn't behave that shittily

[–] Ajen@sh.itjust.works 5 points 7 hours ago (1 children)

I live in America and haven't noticed this as a man, I assume the misogynists have enough self awareness to keep it somewhat out of sight. The last time I noticed something inappropriate, the person quietly left the company a few weeks later. I have no idea if it was related to what I saw, but I wouldn't be surprised.

I 100% believe that it happens, it's just not visible to me.

[–] WalrusDragonOnABike@reddthat.com 1 points 58 minutes ago

Usually its not explicit, but patterns happen can be seen. Sometimes its not obvious unless you are specifically looking for it or the one directly receiving the treatment.

Trans experiences are just one case where those patterns become a lot more obvious. I remember someone telling a story about how often transitioning, someone's father and brother started giving football explanations to her as if she were new to the sport when she'd been just as involved for her entire life. Its not like they were intentionally trying to be malicious, but they clearly subconsciously decided "woman needs to be taught how ball game works" even when its someone who they previous thought of as a man and didn't treat like that.

Of course cis women point out that same kind of treatment. And often people just think they're imagining things.

[–] Allero@lemmy.today 42 points 12 hours ago* (last edited 7 hours ago) (1 children)

One observation I made is that when women get to comprise a significant part of workforce in science, those things seem to be flattened out.

Working in the place and field (Russia, food technology) where women are about 50% of the workforce, I've never witnessed anything talked about here. Women are taken just as seriously on the position, they are promoted on par with men, they are in charge of many high-profile projects, and actively taking male and female students under scientific supervision. Any sort of workplace harassment will not just contribute to your potential termination, but will earn you very bad reputation - you'll be seen as a dangerous weirdo no one wants to deal with.

One other observation I made is that international scientists often come from the position of entitlement, which is also weird to me. Male scientists tend to flaunt their position any time they can, and many of the female scientists tend to sort of mimic this behavior, but it feels different, like if they try to claw the attention they were consistently denied.

For me, it is weird and unnatural. Where I live and work, some baseline respect towards your more experienced superiors, male or female, is to be expected, is taught since school, and doesn't require such performances. Since most school teachers are female, the role of woman as a potential superior to be respected is clearly defined and doesn't cause questions. Students are not afraid to contact their superiors, but do it respectfully and with full understanding they take valuable time of a high-profile scientist. Why do people have to constantly fight for attention and respect in many other cultures is beyond me.

[–] sureok@lemmy.sdf.org 2 points 3 hours ago (1 children)

I share what others have said about your likely difficulty in seeing what's going on around you. However.

I have a couple of female friends who moved as adults to US from Russia in the 80s. Both said they were shocked when they found out the things that weren't soviet propaganda, like how women were treated day to day, and the systemic discrimination against racialized people. Neither of them is immune to racist or sexist bevahior, and now having lived here for so long even moreso, but there is a difference in baseline expectations at the macro scale. Years later they still express surprise when even the pretense of attempting equality is absent or made a joke.

That said I've met women and men from elsewhere in the former USSR (both older and especially younger than the above) who are very heteronormative and accept their "place" in hierarchy. I understand there was post-soviet backlash culturally. How do you view that? In the past 2-4 decades is there progress, regression or what? My point of view could be tainted by selection bias in terms of who chooses to move countries, and where they land.

The fact that Russia underwent a revolutionary transformation in the 20th C, from serf to industrial, when it could benefit from an existing articulation of gender inequalities, must take some credit for present equality, no? To have such a big material shake up, and at least with the goal of addressing the patriarchy. I dont think in the anglosphere we ever had that.

[–] Allero@lemmy.today 2 points 2 hours ago

On your question: I haven't lived in USSR (born in Russia already), but from what I could gather from relatives and older acquaintances, it was quite similar.

Generally good on workplace equality, quite some everyday/domestic sexism going both ways. One negative change in the workplace since the fall of USSR and rise in private enterprises is reluctancy of some bosses to select female employees, as they are feared to take maternity leave and be on the company's budget. I wouldn't say this happens everywhere, but it's common enough to be notable.

The positive shift in the domestic part started about 2010's, as new wave of feminism has been accepted by many in the Russian youth. Still, there are some issues on that front, particularly outside big cities.

In any case, the Soviet legacy clearly shows, and it sure has helped immensely, especially in the workplace.

[–] Tartas1995@discuss.tchncs.de 61 points 14 hours ago (11 children)

As a man, it is insane to me that this is real.

I have a difficult time imagining malicious intent towards women by all these people. But given how common these stories are, there is something true about it. I just don't understand why.

Is it really an unconscious cultural thing? Or am I naive about how my fellow men (I guess maybe women too) feel towards women?

Something in me refuses to believe that these people knowingly and intentionally harm women. But it sure as hell looks intentional.

I am not defending them. I am expressing my struggle with the reality of this shit.

[–] yarr@feddit.nl 3 points 4 hours ago (1 children)

Something in me refuses to believe that these people knowingly and intentionally harm women.

One thing I think that goes too far is people either think misogynists represent 0% of 100% of men. It's neither. There are some men that are extremely prejudiced against women and will cross the street just to bother them, and then there's a huge slice of men that support women as best they can.

I mean, if nothing else, incels definitely exist and they would treat the women in this situation wrongly. Do you think no one is an incel?

[–] Tartas1995@discuss.tchncs.de 1 points 55 minutes ago
[–] Initiateofthevoid@lemmy.dbzer0.com 6 points 6 hours ago (1 children)

Something in me refuses to believe that these people knowingly and intentionally harm women. But it sure as hell looks intentional.

Most people don't do any of this "intentionally" in the sense that they are aware of the harm they cause. It doesn't even enter the realm of moral consideration.

To many, there is a genuine belief of superiority that is entirely subconscious. The easiest example is classic mysogyny in a relationship - the woman is "emotional" and therefore the man should be the one to handle "business". That's not just 1950s oppression. Some variation of that thought process is shockingly prevalent across generations.

That man doesn't really think he's harming his woman. He thinks he's helping, by being the man of the house. That same logic applies outside of romance. "I am more rational than she is, therefore I should talk now and she shouldn't."

That's not a thought. That's just a foundational belief that spawns all the other thoughts.

Ever been in an argument with another adult, and a child joined in with some naive half-informed emotional take on society?

An adult usually placates the child - explains, briefly, why they're wrong - and returns to arguing with the other adult.

That's how a lot of men see women by default. As inferior, naive, ill-informed, emotional creatures. Not consciously. Not intentionally. Many mysogynists genuinely seem to have the same intentions as the adult to the child - to placate and educate.

But its fucked up, and it's important to acknowledge that it simmers under he surface. The reason all of this is so complicated and messy is that it is so hard to see mysogyny for what it is.

You genuinely can't know if a single interaction with a single male was an example of mysogyny, because sometimes humans just condescend to each other. Sometimes humans are just shitty to each other.

But women experience so many of these experiences in aggregate that they can't give the benefit of the doubt to every man they meet, especially when the man himself might not understand his own implicit biases.

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[–] crmsnbleyd@sopuli.xyz 5 points 7 hours ago (1 children)

I understand now how people can believe sexism is not an issue. Do you not have any people who are women close to you who have faced this professionally?

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[–] MisterFrog@lemmy.world 19 points 11 hours ago (1 children)

Personal experience from when I was newly an adult, and chatting with a female university classmate and somehow got on the topic of games and I started explaining what Steam was, because I just subconsciously assumed, her being a woman, didn't know.

She politely pointed out I had mansplained to her.

I am very thankful to her for the experience as it's stuck with me and saved me from making a fool of myself on more than one occasion since.

I'm sure there are possibly small things like this, that you may have been been "guilty" of in the past.

These men, are engaging in similar behaviour cranked up to 1000.

However, it's even more malicious with them, because it's not like the last 30 years or so haven't had constant and increasing messaging (in the anglosphere, at least) about feminism and ways in which women have been treated unfairly.

So, it's not like they haven't had the opportunity to reflect, and change.

In summary, yeah, it is kind of baffling, but I will say society, while largely better than 30 years ago, still does have structural as well as conscious and unconcious bias towards women.

So I'm not surprised people like this exist.

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