this post was submitted on 08 Oct 2023
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[–] De_Narm@lemmy.world 96 points 2 years ago (8 children)

I never got this. They say he is omnipotent, therefore he does not perceive time in a linear way like we do. He knows everything that ever was, is and will be all at once. So there is not much to test here. Either he does the things needed to make me a believer or he doesn't. It's his choice and not mine. Free will is meaningless here, even if it does exist, he does already knows my choice before I make it or he is not omnipotent.

[–] joseangel@lemmy.world 75 points 2 years ago (7 children)

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" - Epicurus

[–] Syrc@lemmy.world 6 points 2 years ago

~~Ackshually~~ it was probably not Epicurus, but Sextus Empiricus. From the surviving writings it seems Epicurus was really not fond of Atheists.

(Doesn’t change that it’s a great argument, I just hate that we don’t have a definite source for it)

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[–] 0x0@lemmy.dbzer0.com 37 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Sure, but "God works in mysterious ways," so it's not my responsibility to clear up any paradoxes that arise from my religious axioms. Get with the program.

[–] De_Narm@lemmy.world 36 points 2 years ago (2 children)

"God works in mysterious ways" is a nice way of describing him as a Lovecraftian horror we cannot possibly understand.

[–] uriel238@lemmy.blahaj.zone 9 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Playing The Sims 2 helped make His mysterious ways less mysterious but the same amount of cosmic horror.

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[–] CarbonIceDragon@pawb.social 15 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (3 children)

Hypothetically, if such an entity did exist, shouldn't that same logic also extend to knowing his own future choices? Since they already know everything that will happen, they also know everything that they themselves are going to do, and therefore, have essentially no agency themselves, because even if their power is infinite, it is already set beforehand what they are going to use that power for and they are essentially just along for the ride?

For that matter, if they know everything, and therefore know everything at all points in time all at once and so shouldn't perceive time linearly, then there is no room for such a being to really engage in information processing, since that requires taking in information, and doing something with it to produce new information, and this kind of being has already taken in all the information possible from the very beginning, does not experience a meaningful flow of time (and so cannot experience change with which to apply to that input), and already has all the outputs from the very beginning too. Since thinking is a form of information processing, it occurs to me a truly omniscient being like this should basically be a philosophical zombie; basically an unconscious object of incredible scope that merely appears to be a conscious thinking entity to humans due to our limited perception of time.

[–] Slowy@lemmy.world 5 points 2 years ago (1 children)

This only exists if there is one possible outcome, it’s possible for the future to be undetermined, and still have an omniscient being know all future possibilities. They would know the infinite possible outcomes of their choices, all the iterations, but would still have free will to decide which path is followed. In this scenario people still don’t have free will because of the omniscience problem.

[–] CarbonIceDragon@pawb.social 8 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Shouldn't they still know which path they will end up choosing to take?

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[–] jaybone@lemmy.world 10 points 2 years ago

I think there was this guy Calvin who already pointed that out.

[–] SpaceNoodle@lemmy.world 7 points 2 years ago (7 children)

Omnipotent means "all-powerful." Omniscient means "all-knowing."

[–] thatsTheCatch@lemmy.nz 9 points 2 years ago (8 children)

Correct. But the Christian belief is that God is also omniscient. He is the three omnis: omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent

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[–] WindowsEnjoyer@sh.itjust.works 80 points 2 years ago (5 children)
[–] Syrc@lemmy.world 35 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I remember this one with the caption “but if you stop it it’s going to be unfair for the people that already died”

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[–] bobby_hill@lemmy.world 8 points 2 years ago (1 children)

This is literally ~~1984~~ COVID19

[–] xenoclast@lemmy.world 8 points 2 years ago

Literally all Capitalism

[–] RIP_Cheems@lemmy.world 6 points 2 years ago
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[–] Chunk@lemmy.world 50 points 2 years ago (2 children)

You are an omniscient and all powerful God.

You create someone who is tortured and killed in a war at the age of 2.

You are a benevolent God because you helped that person experience the full spectrum of what life has to offer.

The 2 year old did not acknowledge your supreme authority because you did not give it a developed brain to grasp the concept and so they burn in hell for eternity, never able to fully comprehend what happened to them. Their entire existence is one of suffering and unexplainable agony.

You are a benevolent God.

[–] bobby_hill@lemmy.world 12 points 2 years ago
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[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 48 points 2 years ago (6 children)

If god is all-knowing, he knew I would grow up an atheist. If god is all-powerful, he hasn't done anything about it. So I guess he's okay with it.

[–] samus12345@lemmy.world 11 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Oh, no, it would be wrong for him to do anything to interfere with your free will! But it's totally fine for his worshipers to do so.

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[–] MajorHavoc@lemmy.world 45 points 2 years ago (3 children)

I took a quick poll of people tied to the tracks, and a majority reported that:

  1. I'm good.
  2. Please get us off these tracks.
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[–] platypus_plumba@lemmy.world 39 points 2 years ago

Plus, he also knew you wouldn't accept him even before he created you.

[–] ILikeBoobies@lemmy.ca 34 points 2 years ago (2 children)

God only kills people he knows will be evil

Just remember next time you see a make a wish kid that they are literally worse than Hitler

[–] Chunk@lemmy.world 12 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Dude blood cancer kids are worse than Hitler. Do you know how many times I'm watching Rick and Morty and I get interrupted by the make a wish foundation? It's infuriating.

I mean, Hitler was a bad guy but he did kill Hitler!

/s

Holy fuck that post is dripping with sarcastic and it still hurt to write.

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[–] nucleative@lemmy.world 32 points 2 years ago

I brought a question like this up in a church. It was not well received.

[–] CrayonRosary@lemmy.world 17 points 2 years ago

No, because you define "evil" as "against your will", and "good" as "anything you do".

[–] ICastFist@programming.dev 17 points 2 years ago

Stop judging me by how I play Rollercoaster Tycoon >:(

[–] makyo@lemmy.world 14 points 2 years ago (3 children)

Plus, as said omnipotent creator you leave only highly questionable 'evidence' of your existence

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[–] Spzi@lemm.ee 10 points 2 years ago

He'S nOt EvIl, He SaVeS yOu!

[–] gabrielhidasy@lemmy.world 9 points 2 years ago (2 children)

You forgot the "they accept you as the creator, and you let the trolley hit anyway"

[–] Wogi@lemmy.world 5 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Then condemn them to endless suffering and torment if they question you.

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[–] remotedev@lemmy.ca 5 points 2 years ago

It's just part of Your plan

[–] aquinteros@lemmy.world 7 points 2 years ago

if only it was just death by trolley... but no no.. ists actually burning for the eternity in a fiery pit of lava and ash, you know, love.

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