this post was submitted on 26 Jan 2025
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Today I Learned

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[–] SnotFlickerman@lemmy.blahaj.zone 161 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (7 children)

Alan Moore wrote Rorschach for a fucking reason and it wasn't because "Rorschach was right!"

Moore was clearly aware of people who are sympathetic to great causes but would undermine them and destroy society just to be able to say that they were right.

Rorschach was right in many ways, but he spent his time looking down on everyone and anything else. His hate for the world was visceral and colored his perception. He was happy to destroy the world just so he could prove to himself that the world was beyond redemption.

The streets are extended gutters and the gutters are full of blood and when the drains finally scab over, all the vermin will drown. The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout 'SAVE US!'...and I'll look down and whisper 'No.'

-Rorschach from Moore's Watchmen

He doesn't support these movements because they're filled to the gills with fucking Rorschachs.

[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 69 points 1 week ago (17 children)

V for Vendetta had a similar message. V was really not all that much better than the people he was fighting. He tortured the fuck out of Evey in order to get her to do his bidding. I'm sure it pissed him off to a huge degree that people started adopting Guy Fawkes masks as an actual symbol of revolution. Moore chose that mask for a reason. That reason is that Guy Fawkes was both fighting oppression and trying to turn England into a theocracy.

[–] mosiacmango@lemm.ee 61 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (3 children)

The issue with subtle critiques of facists is that facists will enjoy them non ironically.

See Watchmen, V for vendetta, starship troopers, warhammer 40k, on and on.

[–] DragonTypeWyvern@midwest.social 34 points 1 week ago

40k isn't a critique any more, and I'd argue it stopped the moment the Emperor became an actual strongman who is the bestest and smartest and handsomest immortal wizard human to ever live who guards humanity in its sleep uwu step on me daddy~~~~

Compared to the original, first edition version, where everything was at the whims of unreliable narration and it was understood that whatever the Emperor was in 30k, and that is a very big question, he's a corpse on a throne in 40k.

Starship Troopers stopped being a critique the minute the first film ended, and the book never was.

[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 6 points 1 week ago

It really is unfortunate.

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[–] captain_aggravated@sh.itjust.works 9 points 1 week ago (14 children)

There's also the factor that the movie is very different from the original comic, and the folks who adopted the Guy Fawkes mask as a hacktivist icon mostly just saw the movie.

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[–] Shiggles@sh.itjust.works 38 points 1 week ago (1 children)

There’s like a dozen in this very thread lmao

Moore hates idol worship. I wouldn’t be surprised if he’d personally fist fight anyone that idolized him.

[–] DragonTypeWyvern@midwest.social 11 points 1 week ago (1 children)

This is slander, he'd clearly cast a tantric curse on them.

[–] TheBat@lemmy.world 8 points 1 week ago

Slander is spoken, in print it's libel

[–] Akasazh@feddit.nl 18 points 1 week ago (2 children)

Rorschach was very conservative and anti sex, much like the maga base. The attractive thing about that is that there's a clear right and wrong.

Later on he'd rather be killed than to admit ozymandias being right. His diary field the hateful marginal right-wing maga-crowd that had their anger taken away by the world peace that had materialized.

[–] Endymion_Mallorn@kbin.melroy.org 27 points 1 week ago (4 children)

Ozymandias was wrong.

He wanted power over a world scared of an "outside" threat that didn't exist. As soon as anyone with any knowledge was able to debunk the 'attack', regardless of how, it would get even worse. The difference was only how far in the future. Rorschach didn't die because Ozy was right. He died because he couldn't be complicit in a world where evil got to win.

Ozymandias wanted to believe a heroic ideal as much as Rorschach - one that's just as self-deluded. He wanted to believe that there was an end to "history". He wanted to decide when the future began. But he forgot just one fact that Rorschach at least was cognizant of:

Nothing ever ends, Adrian.

None of those characters were right.

[–] mojofrododojo@lemmy.world 18 points 1 week ago (1 children)

None of those characters were right.

that's the magic of it, to me.

[–] Endymion_Mallorn@kbin.melroy.org 7 points 1 week ago (2 children)

Totally agree with this. It's part of why I dislike that DC writers sometimes import traits from the Watchmen into their Charlton counterparts. Obviously, if you scratch the surface of Rorschach, you find the Question staring back. If you look at Silk Spectre the right way, you see Black Canary. Nite Owl 1 & 2 are the Blue Beetle (I'm glad that Moore never got to adapt Jaime).

I want most of my superheroes to be clean and honest. I want to know that when I read a story, the Question follows leads responsibly (even if they do sometimes involve aglets) - whether that's Vic or Renee under the no-face. I want to know that Dinah Lance comes from a loving family, has a man she loves and trusts, and is dedicated to being a hero and a mentor to those who aren't in the same place. And so it goes for all of them. I want those characters to be heroes and in the right - or at least, in the realm of responsibility.

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[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 7 points 1 week ago (2 children)

He also basically tortured Moloch for no reason. No matter how many times Moloch told him he didn't have the information. He just repeatedly beat the shit out of a dying old man for information the old man didn't have.

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[–] pauldrye@lemm.ee 85 points 1 week ago (2 children)

It would probably be faster to list the things he doesn't have a negative view about.

[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 33 points 1 week ago (1 children)

I was about to say the same thing. Pretty much the only thing I can think of that he has a positive view of is the hand puppet he worships.

And to his credit, he freely admits it's a hand puppet.

[–] Gradually_Adjusting@lemmy.world 30 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Chaos magick isn't really about believing your own bullshit so much as getting real silly and being able to chat up witchy chicks.

[–] SGforce@lemmy.ca 15 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

Let's not forget the orgies

[–] Gradually_Adjusting@lemmy.world 10 points 1 week ago

How could I?

[–] chemical_cutthroat@lemmy.world 13 points 1 week ago (3 children)

What I came in to say. He's a curmudgeon. A genius, but not the most personable.

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[–] njm1314@lemmy.world 25 points 1 week ago (1 children)

What revolutionary culture? I've never seen any evidence that inspired revolutionary culture. Some cringe culture absolutely, but actual revolutionary culture? Nonsense.

[–] shinigamiookamiryuu@lemm.ee 7 points 1 week ago (2 children)

Have you never seen Anonymous before? They are a revolutionary group whose motif is the Guy Fawkes Mask, which is a symbol that comes directly from the character V from V for Vendetta, who wears one because his mask "is an idea, and ideas are bulletproof". Anonymous has done a lot of notable things, both good and bad, such as going after the Church of Scientology and trying to take part in the pandemic riots, and it is in response to some of this that Alan Moore has brought up the revelation or fact that Anonymous, he would tell/inform you, is excessive and misses the point, distorting his vision for social action, with him implying the same exact objection about Luigi Mangione and those who support him years later. He made characters regardless of good and evil, not models of it (heck, V admits at one point he sabotaged a train just to get his hands on real butter to go with his breakfast, an unmistakably "this must be an anti-hero" move, but everyone wants to focus on things like the "what they did was monstrous, so they made a monster" justification that wasn't meant to be taken as the doctrine it became), and he did not intend people would weaponize use of it as a platform, though most people are only aware of the initial remark of praise he gave Anonymous for combating the Scientology, which is what made it to the encyclopedias.

[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 11 points 1 week ago

You are really understanding Moore's point in V for Vendetta. His whole point is that good and evil are subjective. Which, as far as I can tell, is true in the real world.

V is really not better than the people he is fighting and he has no plan for the aftermath, which will clearly be a horror show.

And I guarantee you plenty of members of Anonymous committed their own horrible acts that would be considered evil by others. Being part of a good cause does not make you a good person.

[–] Cosmonauticus@lemmy.world 5 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Anonymous are not a revolutionary group imo. Revolutions are bloody are done the in the streets. They're a nuisance at best.

what they did was monstrous, so they made a monster" justification that wasn't meant to be taken as the doctrine it became), and he did not intend people would weaponize use of it as a platform,

Personally I think that was pretty naive on Moore's part. It resonates with ppl because it's true. Revolution is often bloody and morally black because ppl have reached their breaking point.

[–] shinigamiookamiryuu@lemm.ee 7 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Revolution doesn't necessarily have to entail violence or blood. The very first recorded strike in history had laborers in ancient Egypt succeed simply by showing up in large numbers. People could also get "creative", such as when the Catalonians declared independence by forming a human circle around their desired territory.

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[–] _cryptagion@lemmy.dbzer0.com 12 points 1 week ago (1 children)

I rather don't think the movements he helped inspire would ask about his opinion though.

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[–] UrukGuy@lemmy.world 8 points 1 week ago (8 children)

UK here - never used stone, LBs or pints as a measurement

If I was measuring bodyweight, I would use KG. Grams for anything light.

The only time I see Milk measured in pints, is bottles or cartons of standard dairy milk in supermarkets. Any other milk is litres, including dairy such as Jersey / Cream top milk

[–] ALiteralCabbage@feddit.uk 5 points 1 week ago (1 children)

How old are you? I'm mid 30s and grew up with stone for human weight, and kg for everything else.

LBs never (except baking from old recipe books), and pints for beer only.

I never know where the cutoff is for us lot.

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[–] FryHyde@lemmy.zip 7 points 1 week ago

TBF Alan Moore has a negative view of the idea that anyone has ever read or enjoyed his work.

[–] finitebanjo@lemmy.world 4 points 1 week ago (6 children)

Yeah, I feel the same way, a lot of these movements are just tyrannical government psyops waging proxy wars in the information era.

I realize that sounds like something a nutjob conspiracist would say but just look at how often the larger groups end up spouting pro-Russia and pro-Chinese sentiments, look at how forceful they are about spreading their ideologies here in the fediverse, look at an LBRY video comment section or at middle eastern talking heads.

Everyone in this whole world pretends to be a revolutionary and almost nobody is anything more than just another tool for a machine built for war and greed.

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