this post was submitted on 08 Apr 2026
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[–] paulcdb@lemmy.world 130 points 3 days ago (3 children)

This is how you tell rich people have some serious mental health issue.

Decent people would rather a world where people worked because they enjoy that type of work rather than being forced to do it because they need money to live.

If you removed money, imagine where we'd all be as a society without the toxicity of money, wars and hate! :(

[–] realitaetsverlust@piefed.zip 30 points 3 days ago (6 children)

If you removed money, imagine where we’d all be as a society

Probably dead or living in the stone age.

There's so many jobs that people don't enjoy but are necessary. Nobody enjoys working in the middle of an australian desert at 40°C in a lithium mine. Nobody enjoys collecting your stinking trash. Nobody enjoys sitting in a store for 8 hours a day, scanning groceries. Nobody enjoys working in a warehouse for 8 hours.

However, these jobs and many more are vital for todays society.

toxicity of money, wars and hate!

You make it sound like wealth and wars are an invention of capitalism and not something that has existed basically since the dawn of time, even as something you can observe in primates, albeit on a much smaller scale.

[–] Nalivai@lemmy.world 36 points 3 days ago (7 children)

The reasons those jobs are such shit is also money. A lot of people enjoy cleaning, nobody enjoys being overworked. Normal functioning societies don't leave heaps of stinking trash around, they neatly pack it and the work of a janitor of garbage collector becomes actually enjoyable if you're a proper type of personality.
Hell, my uncle right now works as a part time street sweeper basically for free. He has his basic needs made by other means, and his "job" pays him enough to get a cup of coffee before the shift and a sandwich after. He just enjoys making the world cleaner, chatting with locals, taking care of stray cats, and having a routine. All of that is possible in a world that doesn't revolves around squeesing every bit of labour from people so some pedos can buy themselves another island and fill it with sex slaves

[–] Zexks@lemmy.world 6 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (2 children)

And you think your uncle is a scalable solution to a city of millions of people. These positions dont scale. Some quick googling show about a half a millions workers in waste remediation in the us in 2023. Do you honestly think you could find half a million people like your uncle that all live spread out enough to fill all the positions (thats on the low end of need also fyi, not surprisingly they have high turnover and difficulty keeping staff for extended periods) around the entire us and that those people would never lose motivation or get burned out or just tired or stop caring. Because that is what we need and that is a single job for a single industry.

Its not scalable

[–] Vespair@lemmy.zip 9 points 3 days ago (1 children)

I just think it's boring that you think money is the only reasonable motivator for these people. There are other forms of compensation and appreciation. And it's not the only option available to us. It's crazy to me that people understand the idea of countries that have military conscription but can't fathom the idea of a system of workable civil conscription.

As I see it you successfully identified a problem and a solution, but that does not suggest that that is the sole or even best solution.

[–] Zexks@lemmy.world 1 points 1 day ago

Where did i mention money at all

[–] Nalivai@lemmy.world 9 points 3 days ago (1 children)

When you do your scaling you need to scale everything. The adult population of the US is estimated as 266 million people as of now. Half a million is roughly 1 adult in 530 people. Let's quadruple it up so they have nice relaxed works schedule. Let's say now you need 4 people per 530. If you think you can't find 10 out of 1000 people who would do some sanitation work, with no stress and without having to think where their next meal comes from, you just never met people.
And this is the most important part that you seem to ignore - when people's basic means are met, they want to fulfill higher levels of Maslow's hierarchy of needs. For some that means doing arts or doing some engineering or running a company. For some, and there are s many of those some, that means "it's not much but it's honest work". Doing small visible changes that make the world the better place one picked up piece of rubbish at a time, is exactly, precisely what significant portion of humanity will be doing.
This also works in another direction: billions of people who would be doing something grand and moving humanity further, are stuck in mundane repetitive broken jobs they hate, because they're stuck in this cycle of needing to grind to survive, without having a moment to breath, which slowly kills every bit of light they once had a potential to have.

[–] Zexks@lemmy.world 1 points 1 day ago

That half a million is an extreme lowball number based on a single waste management company. And no i dont think you'll find 10 in every thousand evenly spread that will want to do this for fun. Those half a million people turn over every couple of months with pay and benefits. And this will apply to every industry and every critical need of society. Theres already a massive shortage of medical personelle and that pays better than most of what were discussing. No it just xoesnt scale

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[–] MnemonicBump@lemmy.dbzer0.com 7 points 3 days ago (7 children)

Like, half of the jobs you listed would be automated out pretty quick in a world without money, out of the other ones, a few would be rendered obsolete without profit motive (pretty sure we can find something better for batteries than lithium, and why would you need someone scanning groceries if there was no money?). What's left can be rotated out or done by lottery, and those doing the undesirable labor get to have more luxury items or whatever. It's not hard to imagine, people have been doing it for centuries.

[–] Serinus@lemmy.world 7 points 3 days ago

Automated by who?

We do need incentives to work. As technology and efficiency advances we should be able to work less, but we still need people to do work they/we don't want to do.

Personally I think people are pretty happy working 24 hours a week even if their job isn't something they love doing. I'm more interested in working towards that, slowly, over time, than just going to "nobody needs to work".

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[–] dejova281@lemmy.world 4 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Nobody enjoys working in the middle of an australian desert at 40°C in a lithium mine.

Believe it or not I’ve actually met someone who enjoys this line of work. He lives in the middle of nowhere in Paraburdoo Australia and loves the heat. So not exactly nobody..

[–] realitaetsverlust@piefed.zip 2 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Okay, let me rephrase it: Not enough people enjoy working the middle of an australian desert at 40°C in a lithium mine to cover the global supply of rare earths.

[–] dejova281@lemmy.world 1 points 2 days ago

I think what causes this imbalance is human nature and our insatiable desire for more that is contrasted by the demand for convenience and ease. Not saying that I have a solution but that’s what causes this need for the motivation you speak of, in the form of money/power. And with an entitled human population that is unwilling to let certain demands go, and the willing few who would sell their convenience and time for a profitable venture, which others have deemed a mental illness (a desire for money).

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[–] Shellofbiomatter@lemmus.org 5 points 3 days ago (4 children)

Society would collapse.
While working out of enjoyment instead of necessity is a noble and good goal. There are jobs that no one enjoys. Money can be used as an incentive to motivate people to work on jobs that aren't that enjoyable, but still necessary.

[–] Micromot@piefed.social 24 points 3 days ago (10 children)

Which jobs? Most of the time there are people enjoying something you wouldn't expect

[–] Shellofbiomatter@lemmus.org 11 points 3 days ago (8 children)

Some yeah, but undoubtedly not enough to keep it working. For example i doubt that many people enjoy working at garbage disposable or basically any waste disposal. Of course these jobs should be fully operated by machines. Or any assistant jobs in manufacturing or jobs that operate in shifts.

[–] waddle_dee@lemmy.world 14 points 3 days ago (10 children)

Uncle worked down at city dump. He loved it. He was kind of a garbologist in a way. He was fascinated by all the things folks threw away. Retired there too. Got a job right out of high school and worked until he was 62 and retired. Dude has so many "trash" sculptures. That is to say, sculptures made out of trash. I think you'd be surprised the jobs folks enjoy doing.

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[–] curbstickle@anarchist.nexus 9 points 3 days ago (2 children)

For example i doubt that many people enjoy working at garbage disposable or basically any waste disposal

Ehhh I bet you'd be wrong. Only anecdotal obviously, but at practice and games for the kids, a lot of dads just chat when there isnt much going on. A couple of them work for the local garbage company. One of them commented that he doesnt know how I stay inside and work all day, he really enjoys being outside with the trucks in the morning, then enjoying the afternoon outside with the kids. Another one is a mechanic for them, he always thought the trucks were cool, and he still enjoys working on them (though he will 100% tell you, in great detail, which manufacturers suck for various parts). Haven't talked much with the last one about work, I think he is the only one just straight up doing it for money though.

And who knows, maybe the guy who likes being outside says that to be positive about his choices in life, but I see him at the park with the kids a lot, I've run into him heading out to the trails on his mountain bike, etc, so I believe him that he's perfectly happy doing it.

Automation for unwanted tasks is great though, I agree, and where automation should be focused.

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[–] Kn1ghtDigital@lemmy.zip 6 points 3 days ago (1 children)

I met a guy last week who was unusually passionate about water filtration and wanted to make a business globally. People are wonderfully weird.

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[–] svcg@lemmy.blahaj.zone 5 points 3 days ago

I daresay there's a few people out there who might enjoy going into the sewers to manually remove the fatbergs, but probably not enough.

[–] r00ty@kbin.life 5 points 3 days ago (1 children)

I was also thinking that. As an example, retail work seems to me to be a kind of hell I don't think I'd want to endure. But I know people that really enjoy it. So it's probably true of any job you might think is only done by those that are forced to.

I think, if AI and robotics replace most jobs. After some years of pain when capitalists enjoy the infinite money glitch they've discovered, there will either be a revolution or a natural coming to understand that things need to work differently.

Now, understand this would only work if the vast majority of work could be done via automation. In this case the vast majority of people would be able to pursue what they enjoy, a bit like the star trek anti-economy. If all remaining required jobs were no longer filled by those that volunteered to do them, there would be some kind of draft (think like jury duty), where people able to do a job have a chance to be called in to do it for a few months then released back to pursue their own interests.

I've always seen capitalism as the carrot on a stick we need, when we need human productivity from the vast majority of people. If that's no longer the case, it's not a suitable solution and all the ideas like universal basic income are just stopgap measures to try to eke a bit more time out of the capitalist system that has already run past the point where we can keep enough people usefully employed to make it work. That's almost certainly the reason we're seeing the huge wealth disparity that increases. As the productivity per person goes up, all the increased value only ever rises to the top.

Bit of a mini rant there, sorry about that.

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[–] JustEnoughDucks@slrpnk.net 1 points 2 days ago

Going into sewage vats and breaking up solidified waste and oil clogs

Deep sea oil rig repair

Underwater dam repair

Driving public transportation (not enough to maintain a system)

Elder care (there is a worldwide lack of people willing to clean up piss and shit of often angry, sometimes aggressive people and deal with regular loss for bad pay, much less in an ideal profession freedom world, relative to the amount of people needing care)

Forensic pathology is something that very very few people enjoy also, but is very needed.

Urine farmer (hunting luring, sprays for animal repellant)

Coal miner

Any precious or rare metal or stone miner

People love intellectual jobs, creative jobs, and some public service jobs. It is much much harder to find people to do body-destroying terrible-condition manual labor jobs. Ideally those are the jobs to be replaces, but of course capitalists want to replace the former category of jobs because those cut into their profits more.

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[–] bearboiblake@pawb.social 12 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (15 children)

Living in a nice society is all the motivation people need. I hate doing dishes, but I do them because I hate living without clean dishes even more. Everyone understands sometimes we gotta do stuff we don't like doing for a greater good. Acting like we need a wageslave class to do menial tasks otherwise we'd just let our world collapse is insulting our collective intelligence. We can share the burden.

[–] trxxruraxvr@lemmy.world 5 points 3 days ago (2 children)

Living in a nice society is all the motivation people need.

You might want to read up on the bystander effect. You do the dishes because no-one else is going to do it. But as soon as there are others who can do the job people will just stand around and let other die before they put in the effort.

[–] bearboiblake@pawb.social 6 points 3 days ago (20 children)

Don't you think there is some way we could structure society to counteract that without creating an underclass of wage slavery?

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[–] Nalivai@lemmy.world 4 points 3 days ago

That's absolutely not what bystander effect is, not even close. It has also nothing to do with the issue at hand. Bystander effect caused not by not willing to put an effort, it's incredibly complicated, layered, and not exactly explained, but probably the only thing we know about it for sure is that it's not because people are lazy

[–] chiliedogg@lemmy.world 3 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (2 children)

Sure is a good thing doing this dishes is the most complicated and least-pleasant thing people can do...

Who's gonna volunteer to go through years of training specializing in commercial diving in wastewater to treatment plants for free?

[–] Nalivai@lemmy.world 3 points 3 days ago (1 children)

"Who's gonna do mindbraking soulcrushing jobs for days without a break?" Nobody, that's not a job that has to be done this way. "But if we stop orphan crushing machine, what will crush all the orphans?"
When you're imagining the worst parts of the worst jobs, remember that the reason those jobs have worst parts is because the main incentive of every job is to have the profit of a job as high as possible, and to exploit the workers. Yeah, some jobs are hard, some are complicated, some are dirty, some are all three. But all that is something people can and regularly enjoy. People don't enjoy when it's degrading, when it's soulcrushing for no reason, when there is obvious injustice. And it has nothing to do with jobs

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[–] bearboiblake@pawb.social 3 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (4 children)

Someone who wants to live a life of luxury and comfort in a world with wastewater treatment plants, knowing that everyone else is also pitching in and doing their part.

Someone who wants to live in a world without billionaire pedophiles in power doing nothing but hoarding all of the wealth.

Someone who cares about the wellbeing of their community and is motivated by that, rather than by selfish greed.

In other words, anyone. Everyone.

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[–] r00ty@kbin.life 11 points 3 days ago (1 children)

I'm not saying you're wrong. But you realise how that reads right? It sounds like you're saying we should keep a boot on the neck of "the little people" so the rest of us can have a good life.

[–] Shellofbiomatter@lemmus.org 5 points 3 days ago

Fair point, though i did try to use positive encouragement model to incentice people to work in not so enjoyable jobs. Even if not permanently, maybe in rotation.

[–] balderdash9@lemmy.zip 2 points 3 days ago

Indigenous peoples figured this shit out before centralized governments and computers, I'm sure we can think of something.

[–] Whostosay@sh.itjust.works 3 points 3 days ago (3 children)

I don't think you understand. I want my boat to be bigger than your boat.

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