this post was submitted on 23 Jan 2026
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In cartoon ducks: overly simplistic but cute, naive, and innocent
In humans: pronatalism. weird disgusting pseudo colonial bullshit that’s the dark mirror to “just” wanting kids.
Edit: sorry for throwing cynicism into a cute comic’s comment section. Promise I’m fine 😅
I think you need to go outside and look at some wildlife or something.
But not ducks, clearly
Anti-natalism is such a wild and depressing position to have. It's not just not wanting kids personally, or even just not wanting to be around kids, but that giving birth is immoral and horrendous.
I don't really plan to have kids myself, but I have a nephew and he is so amazing and my sister is doing an amazing job raising him.
I've heard (well, read) from one anti-natalist that thinking children are wonderful to be around is akin to cult language. As if anti-natalists don't sound like they are in a cult themself.
Thank you for coming to my TedTalk
Militant Anti-natalists are just as cringe as those Pro-natalists who pressure you to have children
Just leave people alone for their personal decisions ffs
As someone who understands, if not necessarily openly espouses, anti-natalist ideology, I can give a bit of elucidation from my perspective of the philosophy of utilitarianism, which I am happy to debate. It would be nice to be proven wrong here.
It comes down, in my opinion and understanding, to the following argument:
an entity is inherently unable to consent to its own creation. [A postulate]
suffering has a net-negative effect on the (perceived or actual) value of existence [precept of utilitarianism]
suffering knowingly enacted against any entity which cannot give informed consent is eqquivalent to the suffering of an entity which is actively not consenting [by which argument paedophilia is a crime]
The potential suffering inherent in life is foreseeable, as is the potential of a human life to harm the lives of others. [The basis of the concept of negligence]
An entity that is not created does not harm or cause others to suffer, nor does it experience harm or suffering [postulate]
From propositions 1 through 4:
You are personally, morally responsible for the life which you create, both its actions and its experiences, as all of its experiences and actions are exclusively contingent on the act of its creation. It is from this moral duty that parental responsibility derives.
there is a foreseeable possibility that the entity being created could endure enough suffering (or be the cause of same) to make the value of their life net-negative
From propositions 5 and 6, and the various observations one might make of the world (from climate change, to the renewed rise of fascism and the far-right, and a myriad of other "natural shocks which flesh is heir to"), they suggest:
From which:
That is the basis. If you can prove each of those propositions, then from a utilitarian perspective, I think anti-natalism follows. I am personally convinced up to proposition 6, and I am personally waiting until I no longer feel that 7 has a chance of being valid before I have children. There are plenty of ways you can argue against the propositions, but as they stand, there is no indication of a moral duty to end already-extant life or to engage in mass-sterilisation of animals. There are certainly people who try to come at it from a nihilistic perspective, and it's MUCH easier to argue pretty much anything from nihilism than from utilitarianism, but I, being primarily utilitarian, hold with the above.
I also think that the person saying "anti-natalists think children are awful to be around" is presenting a ridiculous strawman. I'm a public school teacher, and I love being around kids. The wonder with which they view the cosmos is forever inspiring to me, but many of my students have experienced truly awful things. I believe my moral duty involves doing everything I can to minimize the suffering of entities that exist. I think that, once a child has been created, you now have a moral duty to make that child's life as free from suffering and as fulfilling and rich as possible (without imposing suffering on others, of course)
Wow, a very impressive, nuanced, and detailed explination about the ideology. A much better argument for anything than I can conjur up myself.
Alright, I am that person. Then again now that I see you have written about some people arguing for anti-natalisim from a nihilistic perspective vs a utilitarian one. I usually see more of the nihilistic arguments, which to me I just outright ignore for having too much of a negativity bias, especially these days.
TLDR: you are better than me
That's fair, and I can't speak for others, but at the very least, it's a generalisation which I believe is unwarranted. I can simultaneously believe that it is morally questionable to choose to have a child, but also that a child, once born, places upon all members of society a moral duty of care in its upbringing, not only for harm reduction, but to work toward the betterment of society writ-large, so that we can potentially make the future act of procreation less morally concerning.
You said that anti-natalists dislike when their beliefs are challenged, but the first thing you do is concede that point and start talking about your personal perspective on the history of anti-natalism. I'm trying to present as close as you can get to a logically-valid anti-natalist argument, but it seems like your personal experience with people you perceive to be anti-natalists has tainted your ability to engage with that perspective. Claiming that an idea attracts crazy people is just an anecdotal ad hominem, not an actual issue with the idea. If you want to talk about why you perceive it to attract crazy, antisocial child-haters, then first establish that that is the case and suggest what it is about the idea which makes such an attraction dangerous. Fascism isn't bad because the worst people rally around it. The worst people rally around it because of the things which make it bad, such as the ease with which those in power in a fascist state can exploit the weak for personal gain.
It appears, to me (though it is ambiguous, so let me know if I'm off-base), that you believe that the biggest danger of anti-natalism is in the potential of population decline. If a significant portion of the population agreed with an anti-natalist argument, such that they actually did believe it was morally irresponsible to have a child, I contend that the problem which must be solved is not their exposure to anti-natalism, but the things which caused it to be a convincing argument, namely the fact that the future of a child born into this world is a deeply risky bet, due to the reasons I've listed and more. I don't think that people taking a rational cost-benefit analysis of a situation is a problem. The problem would be the situation.
In fact, it seems like (again an implication, so correct me if I'm wrong) you are concerned that an anti-natalist would try to forcibly prevent people from having children, but such an action would increase the suffering of those alive, and the actor would be morally culpable for such an act. As such, if you are, instead, suggesting that anti-natalists believe in forced sterilisation or otherwise, then I think that it might not be the anti-natalists projecting their own problems onto the world.
As an earth and space science teacher, why yes, I DO know some things about the cosmos. For instance, I know that the "big bounce" theory (everything repeating) is only one of many potential interpretations for the future of our universe, and is by no means the most popular among astrophysicists, since it appears inconsistent with a universe in apparently-accelerating expansion. Far more likely is heat death or the big rip, which would make all effort to come before existentially meaningless, unless some method of information transfer outside of our universe or beyond our current understanding were to be achieved. It's a good thing that none of us will be around to experience those eventualities. If you'd like to chat about existential nihilism, absurdism, or other concerns, I'm happy to do so, but I don't perceive them to be particularly germane to the argument at hand, unless you're trying to use a nihilistic argument to tear apart a fairly common position among nihilists. Utilitarianism itself is, ultimately, a response to the lack of meaning in the cosmos, and is an attempt to ascribe meaning by our own, subjective definition, so of course it's human-biased, but it can be applied evenly, even to animals, which seems to be a primary concern for you.
That is... Exactly my point. Are you sure you are disagreeing with me? We need to be actively taking better care of the world, so that no one need feel afraid of bringing a life into this world, only for it to experience unspeakable suffering.
Such a thing is fundamentally unknowable, but our definition of suffering is fairly consistent, and of course It's all about personal moral culpability, because that's the whole idea of morality. If you're going to take so many nihilistic and moral relativist stances, I don't see why you're so concerned with population collapse or animal welfare.
While it is fair to attack the postulates of an argument, this is not, in my opinion, a particularly compelling argument. Sure, I assume that not creating a life does no harm, but to say "ooh, free will might be an illusion" doesn't actually negate my point, because, at worst, this means that it doesn't matter whether you're anti-natalist.
My argument does not apply to animals in a state of nature, as those animals are not reasonably expected to have responsibility (If I were to learn that a species of animal did, in fact, have sufficient mental capacity to understand existential philosophy, then I would probably be having this conversation with a dolphin, rather than a lemming). Humans are the active cause of the current mass-extinction event, and we have the wherewithal to potentially stop it. That is, from my perspective, a moral imperative. Humans are the cause of a great deal of suffering, both human and among other animals, and one of my precepts claims that suffering can have a net-negative effect on the value of life. Another precept enjoins us to act, as the failure to act constitutes negligence. Do i believe that we must all stop procreating? no. Do i believe that there are cases in which it is actively irresponsible and negligent to bring a child into the world? Absolutely, yes. Do I think that I have a moral responsibility to stop people from fucking? No I do not. Do i believe that everyone must be educated on the responsibilities, risks, costs and benefits of parenthood, so they can be informed when they consent to engage in procreation? Yes. Do I think I have a moral responsibility to make the world a better place for the inevitable products of the aforementioned fucking? ABSO-FUCKING-LUTELY
I very clearly stated "as someone who understands, if not necessarily openly espouses, anti-natalist ideology". I am suggesting that I, personally, think that my original 7th premise is becoming closer and closer to logical truth. I believe, as something close to an anti-natalist, that everyone needs to do their own cost-benefit analysis to determine whether they can accept the culpability of deciding to bring an unconsenting entity into the horrific world in which we currently live. So, just because I don't believe in forcibly converting everyone to the cause, doesn't mean I don't believe in it, just like not every Christian is an evangelical. Anyone who believes that there is a moral imperative to forcibly stop others from having children is clearly fundamentally misunderstanding the reasons why anti-natalist principles are so attractive (much like how evangelicals display a fundamental misunderstanding of Christian theology)
Yeah, that sounds like someone seriously in need of mental healthcare. I guess I just haven't seen all of these crazies you claim make up the entirety of the group. I honestly do believe that anyone who is still pro-natalist is either not thinking very clearly, or is likely to be part of the groups making it immoral to have a child, because it seems like a very simple logical conclusion. I just believe that such arguments are clearly superior to anything pro-natalists have offered, and so all that is necessary is to talk to people. Just put off having kids for a few years until you know whether irresponsibly risking creating a life of misery is right for you!
Wholeheartedly agree, though I think that such a person could also simultaneously be trying to repress the rights of women, not just have a sex kink. It can be both things.
But if she found more baby rather than "make", doesn't that imply adoption?
True. Lots of pronatalists tend towards eugenics, so doubt they’re huge fans of adoptions.
OTOH, even nurture-over-nature pronatalists would be problematic. “I’m better than everyone else so I should have an outsize impact on the next generation by adopting as many children as possible” is only slightly better than the eugenic variant.
I think you are mistaken. People who want children often want their own children; people who want a lot of children want children theirs or others
I can't tell if you hate ducks or are simply a pro-natalist. Regardless go watch a movie or play a game or something, may I suggest Red Dead Redemption? It's currently on sale on steam.
That's an impressively incorrect reading of the comment.
Can't see any other point they were making then. Unless they are just trying to call hypocrisy towards folks thinking animals having lots of babies is cute while humans doing the same is bad. Because if that is the point that's missing so much fucken context that if it was a physical object it'd be a fucken mountain range, mostly because most animal babies die pretty fucken often. From experience chicks alone have like a 60 percent mortality rating if humans aren't directly involved in taking care of them, roosters apparently love to eat chicks.
They're saying that "more babies = more success" is a funny and cute idea when expressed by a cartoon duck, but is extremely harmful when expressed by humans in the real world. I honestly can't imagine how you reached your interpretation of the comment because it seems to have very little in common with anything they said.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding, because it looks like the duck had 1 baby, then adopted 20 others.
Obviously ducks are cuter than humans.
Not sure why you think someone hates ducks.
Because the way they wrote their comment is often times used to draw direct comparison and critique between two different things. It's basically the meme of the two castles fighting each other with text like "our glorious leader" vs "their ignoble tyrant". But then again I am very much in favor of death of the author so two different interpretations of a single work can exist once published, I think that can apply to a comment.
I see where you’re coming from but no, I’m very much not pronatalist, and my opinion of them is literally what I put in the comment.
I was going for “amusing juxtaposition” but the vote balance on my comment shows you were not the only one who didn’t take it that way, my bad!
Edit: I also do not hate ducks
I have never heard of this meme format, thanks for the education!
Just hopping in to say that the RDR franchise is great and worth the money.
I've spent so many hours just riding around hunting or collecting herbs. One of the few games you can genuinely turn off your brain and immerse yourself in the world.
Also undead nightmare is unironically one of the more unique takes on zombies. Not necessarily because they do anything particularly interesting with the zombies themselves but moreso because the closest thing to zombie Western I know of is a bug in the PS3 version of Fallout: New Vegas where an infinitely spawn of ghouls can occur at the test site. Never been able to replicate it on PC and I don't know if it was specific to me or not.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGL8Fx6SOjg
No one else said, and it seems like you're catching on, but it needs saying out loud: today, you suck.