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submitted 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) by Infamousblt@hexbear.net to c/askchapo@hexbear.net

My partner keeps trying to read it and they keep stopping and reading me passages and then looking up actual historical fact and going wtf, this book is nonsense? Does it get better?

I don't know I haven't read it. I told them I'd ask here. Does it get better? Is it anti communist propaganda or is the ridiculous anti communist screed that starts this book serious off just setup for something better?

Thanks for all the good answers I showed them the whole thread and they said a lot of what you all said is in line with their understanding. So basically the first bit is a caricature of the bad parts of early Chinese communism and then that gets better but it turns misogynist instead. Fun series. They'll continue to read because we have a lot of family and friends who LOVE the book and they want to understand why but it's helpful to have the lens on it

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[-] Shinji_Ikari@hexbear.net 62 points 1 year ago

The beginning part of the book is a semi realistic portrayal of the cultural revolution tbh. I was talking to someone on here earlier about this. The early stages of the revolution weren't in fact sunshine and rainbows, bad stuff did happen. Modern Chinese folks look back at it as a sorta shame and growing pains type deal and something they should learn and improve from.

That ability to accept fault and grow is something overall lacking in the west.

[-] Mardoniush@hexbear.net 33 points 1 year ago

It's standard high intelligentsia (We are super smart and the people are wrong and stupid mobs) stuff. Yes the Cultural Revolution sucked and his take is based on non-representative examples of some of the worst excesses (I don't think anyone was beaten to death for einstein, though), but the critique is similar to that of upper class Soviet intellectuals bitching about how a mine worker earned as much as a doctor.

[-] TreadOnMe@hexbear.net 31 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

While still not wanting to work in the mines, btw. That's the part that always kills me when I read these accounts, is the intelligentsia bitching about how they did so well in school, and these damn workers are taking up so many resources even though they didn't do well in school. There is no one going 'Then you go work in the mines if you think it is that easy.'

The good (bad) part of the Cultural Revolution was that that would forcibly happen. Professors who complained how easy the peasants had it were literally kidnapped by student organizations and dropped off in the country side to fend for themselves. The problem was that it was massively disorganized and a pretty easy system to abuse, which also gave the professors no incentive to actually grade anything. But there was a short-time, where if you said bullshit, you ate shit for it, and no one ever forgot about it.

[-] WoofWoof91@hexbear.net 27 points 1 year ago

Professors who complained how easy the peasants had it were literally kidnapped by student organizations and dropped off in the country side to fend for themselves

based-department

[-] came_apart_at_Kmart@hexbear.net 19 points 1 year ago

i work in academia and i gotta say, there are a lot of people here who deserve to be deeply humiliated.

[-] TreadOnMe@hexbear.net 25 points 1 year ago

Yeah... about once a week when I am at school I hear something and find myself thinking 'Maybe Mao was right.' but that is generally an unhealthy thought. Especially since, as violent as the Chinese CR got, an American CR would likely be twice as bloody because we have basically no regard for our fellow citizens.

The best imaginable future for the Failed States of America is still an absolute fucking nightmare isn't it

[-] ThomasMuentzner@hexbear.net 28 points 1 year ago

the Phsical ideas are really impressive but theres a bunch of wierd reactionary and mysogistic stuff in it , for example its always a woman that "fucks shit up"

[-] IzyaKatzmann@hexbear.net 15 points 1 year ago

I felt like it was patronizing as well, and thought that the one society in the future which was more androgynous (therefore less feminine) was throwing a bit of shade.

Nonetheless I think the protagonist of the final book was the one who used her caring and love (of course gendered towards a woman) to essentially solve the final and largest conflict of the series. Something that could not have been done with the other men who were shown to be either stoic or excessively macho.

[-] FishLake@lemmygrad.ml 26 points 1 year ago

The first book has quite a few flashbacks to the Cultural Revolution. Most are…fine I guess? There’s one that’s straight up ridiculous, and to the day I’m not sure if it was a joke or not.

Anyway, the books themselves avoid modern politics insofar as a book series with aliens can. It’s there, sure. But I wouldn’t say there’s any clear anti-communist slant. There’s some anti-western culture sentiment here and there though.

[-] RedDawn@hexbear.net 6 points 1 year ago

What was the ridiculous part? It’s been a while since I read the first book.

[-] Fishroot@hexbear.net 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

The ridiculous part is there are actual political interferences within high level states research institute. The CPC actually shelters all personnel who work on highly secretive projects (ei. space program and nuclear weapon program) and state level research for the fallout of the Cultural Revolution

[-] Fishroot@hexbear.net 21 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

If three body problem is ''anti-communist'' 90% of the Chinese people, 100% of the party members are also anti communists.

Cultural Revolution is not something Chinese people like to talk about. You'll be lucky if you managed to ply your grandparents to say some stuff about it. If they do, and you asked them to put stuff into perspective with the Great Leap Forward, you'll get more justifications for the death in the GLF than in the cultural revolution.

There is a reason why the party after Mao's death decided to give some liberties to discuss it in negative light and then for the Party just goes in the late 90s to be like: ''well, ok people we got it, you are right, now let's shut the fuck up about it because you can buy a Parasonic TV, drink coca cola and go to KFC''

[-] CliffordBigRedDog@hexbear.net 6 points 1 year ago

If three body problem is ''anti-communist'' 90% of the CPC, 100% of the party members are also anti communists.

Some people might agree with this lol

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[-] ReadFanon@hexbear.net 20 points 1 year ago

Hell yeah it is.

They absolutely drag the incredible good name of comrade Norman Bethune, pioneer of battlefield medicine and doctor who first served on the frontlines of the Spanish Civil War, later to travel to Mao's China to provide desperately needed medical care and modern medicine to the Chinese people, only to end up dying in the line of work.

The book gives the crackpot scientist the nickname "Bethune" and I will never forgive the book for dragging the name of a heroic individual like that.

Mao upheld Bethune as a hero, as we all should.

[-] 420blazeit69@hexbear.net 11 points 1 year ago

You're probably right about the intent, but I'd call that more of an obscure dig than a major smear of the actual person.

[-] ReadFanon@hexbear.net 11 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Bethune has multiple statues and memorials in China and there's claims that he is revered by Chinese people for his dedication to them.

I'm no Sinologist so take that with a grain of salt but, if does happen to be true, then I feel like for the Chinese audience that Bethune reference wouldn't be lost on the more historically-literate reader, at the least.

[-] 420blazeit69@hexbear.net 6 points 1 year ago

I imagine Bethune is thought of in China about the way Lafayette is thought of in the U.S., but yeah, I'm far from an expert myself.

[-] HarryLime@hexbear.net 19 points 1 year ago

The author is Chinese from the mainland so I doubt it

I love those books and am fine with that making me a radical centrist (on this website)

[-] 420blazeit69@hexbear.net 10 points 1 year ago

I can enjoy books without perfect politics because I do not insist on describing real events through the lens of fictional characters.

[-] IzyaKatzmann@hexbear.net 9 points 1 year ago

From a New Yorker article:

Joel Martinsen, the translator of the second volume of Liu’s trilogy, sees the series as a continuation of this tradition. “It’s not hard to read parallels between the Trisolarans and imperialist designs on China, driven by hunger for resources and fear of being wiped out,” he told me. Even Liu, unwilling as he is to endorse comparisons between the plot and China’s current face-off with the U.S., did at one point let slip that “the relationship between politics and science fiction cannot be underestimated.”

Link here

[-] IzyaKatzmann@hexbear.net 21 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

This article also has some questionable (racist?) stuff. Like what does he mean by 'Chinese society'?

"Types are central to the way Liu thinks of people; he has a knack for quickly sketching the various classes that make up Chinese society."

Some more:

"Much of the books’ resonance, however, comes from the fact that they also offer a faithful portrait of China’s stringently hierarchical bureaucracy, that labyrinthine product of Communism."

This is the worst offender:

"Liu closed his eyes for a long moment and then said quietly, “This is why I don’t like to talk about subjects like this. The truth is you don’t really—I mean, can’t truly—understand.” He gestured around him. “You’ve lived here, in the U.S., for, what, going on three decades?” The implication was clear: years in the West had brainwashed me. In that moment, in Liu’s mind, I, with my inflexible sense of morality, was the alien."

He also talked about a million Uyghur's in re-education camps, the one child policy, and cremation as opposed to burying people in the ground.

[-] combat_brandonism@hexbear.net 25 points 1 year ago

China’s stringently hierarchical bureaucracy, that labyrinthine product of Communism.

damn that internalized orientalism goes hard

[-] JuneFall@hexbear.net 17 points 1 year ago

Luckily my company got no hierarchies, nor do the parties I can't get into, nor is politics hierarchical.

[-] aleph@lemm.ee 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Actual historical records show that Red Guards publically denounced, beat, and even (on occasion) murdered teachers during the Cultural Revolution.

I'm wondering what sources your boyfriend is consulting that claim otherwise.

[-] Infamousblt@hexbear.net 20 points 1 year ago

I do find it funny and way too on the nose that the only ee poster that showed up here misgendered my partner

[-] aleph@lemm.ee 16 points 1 year ago

Apologies. I have no idea why I assumed your partner's gender - my brain apparently just filled in the blanks by itself.

[-] Infamousblt@hexbear.net 13 points 1 year ago

Thanks for owning up to it!

[-] TreadOnMe@hexbear.net 10 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I don't think that is the part that they are disputing but it could be, as it is unclear what they are disputing.

That said, alot of what happened in the Cultural Revolution was 'Talk shit, get hit.' Which isn't exactly a great disciplinary system, especially when it can be based on hear-say.

[-] a_blanqui_slate@hexbear.net 7 points 1 year ago

Let me save you 35 hours and just tell you that the book series is the equivalent of two 12 year olds playing top trumps with pages ripped out of a theoretical physics textbook.

[-] fred@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

The beginning of the book is set in the Mao era and doesn't shy away from its awfulness. If that counts as propaganda to you, 🤷‍♂️

[-] JuneFall@hexbear.net 23 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Are you from the US? How often have you read stories as such for the Kent State massacre, the Battle of Blair Mountain, or the drowning of the hundreds in the Seine in Paris?

It does more than show what was at a point in time, it is powerful propaganda, as your comment shows. Not only do you use "Mao era", but also imply that it was awful. Which is quite a big stroke used.

Besides that there are ways to frame scenes, the one's in the three body problem have the problem that they are leading and are part of fiction, yet people take them for depictions of reality and construct their idea of what was from it.

Within the CPC the Cultural Revolution - rightfully - got critiqued quite a bit and the phrase in regards to Mao of "70% good, 30% bad" is still common.

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[-] TheDeed@hexbear.net 5 points 1 year ago

I stopped a couple of pages in because of this, I got a vibe

[-] UltraGreen@hexbear.net 3 points 1 year ago

I've been meaning to read this book. I recently watched the wandering earth movie on netflix, and I didn't get any anti communist vibe at all. If anything it showed a lot of cooperation between nations and the some of communism's strengths.

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this post was submitted on 28 Aug 2023
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