rule problem : 196

[-] cyborganism@lemmy.ca 148 points 3 months ago

We don't know what Biden is saying behind closed doors, but I'd be willing to bet my left nut that he's really angry at Netanyahu.

Bibi knows he would get full support to wipe out Gaza from Trump.

Biden is still trying to help within a certain frame by sending aid and asking Netanyahu to stop killing civilians. But that's only as much as he can do without completely pulling all funding, weapons and ammo. But there's risks associated to that. Especially with the threat of Iran in the middle East. He doesn't want to lose the support of one of the only allies, if not the only one, in the region.

The whole thing is very complex. There's lots of things at play here and it's all a bunch of shades of gray. Nothing is black and white.

However, there's only one thing that's really important here. Trump must lose. A Trump win would be devastating for world peace. I don't think Americans understand enough how much their country is a central pillar for world peace. The Gaza genocide could be nothing compared to the world wide cluster fuck we could be in if Trump wins.

So get your heads out of your asses, swallow your fucking pride and do the world a fucking favor by voting for the only candidate who still has a chance at not bringing a third, and possibly ultimate, world war.

[-] gravitas_deficiency@sh.itjust.works 41 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

For real - Trump would have sent whole squadrons of B-52s to carpet bomb Gaza without warning or allowance for any civilian evacuation.

I voted uncommitted in my primary on Tuesday. But I am sure as shit voting for the Democratic nominee, whoever it turns out to be, but realistically, it’s going to be Biden.

I understand precisely how central the US is to world stability at large. I’m not trying to claim the US is perfect, or unambiguously good - we have absolutely done a lot of shitty things over the years. I will assert that the world would likely be a lot more dangerous in a holistic sense if it weren’t for the US’s post-WW2 leadership in the western hemisphere.

[-] tryptaminev@feddit.de 15 points 3 months ago

The US has deliberately destabilized the Middle East, South and Central America and Southern Asia. What you describe as holistic sense, is in fact the opposite. It is limited to a western perspective, that was culturally formed by almost a century of American supremacism, denial of non western perspectives in media and manufacturing consent propaganda in all levels of society..

The Vietnam war was largely an effort to destabilize the region and prevent economic development by defending a brutal post colonial regime against its own people. It wasn even about communism, as the US was happy to help the genocidal Red Khmer in Cambodia.

The US has toppled something like a dozen democratically elected governments in South and Central America and installed brutal, often fascist regimes, to maximise US company profits.

The US destroyed Iraq, leading to the Insurgency and subsequently ISIS, to keep the Middle East at perpetual destablization after it started to become more stable in the early 2000s. The momentum was then used to destabilize Syria, Lebanon and Jordan. While claiming it was about "democracy" the US was happy to support the coup in Egypt after they kicked out Mubarak and held elections. The now installed Sisi is even worse than Mubarak.

The final example should be Afghanistan, where 20 years of US occupation created nothing tangible and had the country fall back under Taliban control before the last US troops were out.

[-] zeppo@lemmy.world 26 points 3 months ago

First thing trump would do is stop all Ukraine aid and give Putin the green light, second thing he'd do is withdraw from NATO.

[-] cyborganism@lemmy.ca 7 points 3 months ago

Exactly.

[-] Dippy@beehaw.org 13 points 3 months ago

Yes all of this. And also, even if Palestine was in no way on the ballot in November, that doesn't mean it's not worth it to vote for the guy who is much better in all the ways that are on the ballot

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[-] LadyAutumn@lemmy.blahaj.zone 11 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

He literally said today that he will never stop supporting and arming Israel.

[-] IsThisAnAI@lemmy.world 6 points 3 months ago

I wish more people understood you some deescalate by screaming we're going to kick your ass and force you to stop. That is unless you all want the US fighting on a third front and are willing to eat that cost.

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[-] Wirlocke@lemmy.blahaj.zone 58 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

Honestly the Trolley Problem is a perfect representation of this issue. All leftists in America are being asked to either personally hold a part in a genocide, or to personally abstain and allow greater horrors to be unleashed (including the genocide).

[-] Stoneykins@mander.xyz 17 points 3 months ago

I feel like if it really mapped so cleanly onto the trolley problem, there wouldn't need to be 4 paragraphs of text included throughout the meme in an attempt to head off any arguments...

[-] Wirlocke@lemmy.blahaj.zone 18 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

The general election vote itself is the trolley problem, the paragraphs are detailing other solutions beyond simple voting to try and get out of the trolley problem.

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[-] LinkOpensChest_wav@lemmy.blahaj.zone 33 points 3 months ago

This post is the most accurate portrayal of the situation I think I've seen. I'd greatly question someone's moral compass if they liked Biden or approved of his presidency. Whenever this gets discussed, a bunch of status quo warriors pop out of wells to say "Trump is worse." Like, no shit.

[-] neeeeDanke@feddit.de 19 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

Whenever this gets discussed, a bunch of status quo warriors pop out of wells to say "Trump is worse." Like, no shit.

Yes, but it still needs to be said every time because it would be detremental to leave even the tiniest chance for this (valid) critique of Biden to help Trump in the presidential election. That is why I think it's inportant to point out the obvious (Trump is way worse) because it is obvious to most but might not be to some and it would be a massive Issue if those people could take this discourse as reason not to vote for Biden in november.

[-] LinkOpensChest_wav@lemmy.blahaj.zone 9 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

It seems to me in bad taste when someone's trying to discuss things like the Palestinian genocide or the immigrant concentration camps to then try to make it about a campaign. It effectively derails meaningful discussion about people actually suffering and dying via Biden's bad actions.

Edit: But I do understand your pov. I just disagree with it. The best thing we can do to earn the votes of leftist and progressive voters is to at least make us feel heard. Lecturing us about Trump every time seems like a great way to alienate people.

[-] Deceptichum@sh.itjust.works 10 points 3 months ago

The way they talk, Biden is the greatest thing ever.

I dont care that they have to vote for him to avoid Trump, that sucks but i get it.

But I cannot tolerate the maga cult levels of delusion they use to support him. Just admit hes shit and that all he offers is not being Trump, at least that shows a sign that maybe you would at least want to fix the system after the election.

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[-] spujb@lemmy.cafe 8 points 3 months ago

thank you! fully agree. i’m slowly getting a handle on this rhetoric posting thing 🙃

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[-] Stoneykins@mander.xyz 21 points 3 months ago

I just want to point out a thing said in this, that I have seen said hundreds of other times, which is not correct.

Due to the spoiler effect, a leftist vote for a third party candidate is essentially a vote for trump

This is incorrect, most charitably interpreted as an exaggeration, but it is said so often I think people are misunderstanding the spoiler effect.

The spoiler effect is real and it can suppress a victory of not-as-bad candidates if they have a popular opposition, but it is never as bad as "essentially voting for trump". It is equivalent to not voting at all, at worst.

And it is also a simplification of the situation to imply that the spoiler effect only affects democrats. There is a similar thing going on with conservative third parties.

[-] Swedneck@discuss.tchncs.de 22 points 3 months ago

eh, you're still effectively supporting trump by not voting for the party that can actually win instead.

It's not as bad as voting for trump, but it's still giving him a better shot at winning than he would have if you voted for biden

[-] Stovetop@lemmy.world 12 points 3 months ago

But if I'm a leftist, wouldn't I rather any candidate win over the furthest right one?

Obviously I'd want a leftist to be the president, but US politics doesn't work outside of the binary. I voted third party in 2016 and regretted it a lot.

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[-] spujb@lemmy.cafe 10 points 3 months ago

you know what, you are absolutely correct and i would have the same criticism about this post if i saw someone else post it.

i think my mind slipped when i was putting it together and typed words that meant more than i did. my fault.

ill make an effort to fix this.

[-] zarkanian@sh.itjust.works 7 points 3 months ago

It is equivalent to not voting at all, at worst.

And this only because some places won't count your votes if the difference isn't big enough to swing the election. This ought to be illegal, but it isn't.

[-] Kalkaline@leminal.space 16 points 3 months ago

Primary season is almost over, your chances of getting this done is narrowing.

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[-] Eheran@lemmy.world 12 points 3 months ago

[removed by mod]

[-] spujb@lemmy.cafe 78 points 3 months ago

while it is not quite unanimous, the majority of experts agree that the ongoing violence fits the definition of genocide

more importantly, in what fucking world does calling one thing a genocide devalue other genocides? that is such a disgusting take i see everywhere and it’s nauseating.

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[-] STUPIDVIPGUY@lemmy.world 41 points 3 months ago

its undoubtedly genocide. and besides that, project 2025 and the threat of conservative fascism is still very real

[-] zeppo@lemmy.world 8 points 3 months ago

Conservative fascism and Trump's foreign policy would kill a hell of a lot more people than 50k in Gaza, but more of them too.

[-] LinkOpensChest_wav@lemmy.blahaj.zone 15 points 3 months ago

Terrible take. Calling something what it is in no way devalues the word. This is genocide.

[-] TotallynotJessica@lemmy.world 12 points 3 months ago

The worst part is that the US supporting Israel is a huge liability at this point for everyone involved. A regional war would harm all parties. There might not be be an Israel if they don't stop their genocide. All US investment will have gone to waste and the entire region will be devastated. Your enemies can't win if everyone is destroyed 💀

[-] SuddenDownpour@sh.itjust.works 10 points 3 months ago

Godfuckingdamnit. This is syntax class all over again, isn't it? It's damn obvious, but there's some people who did actually need to solve the trolley problem, and still didn't.

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[-] gayhitler420@lemm.ee 9 points 3 months ago

Not pictured: a giant hand holding the lever flipper in place, forcing their participation and complicity in one major candidates genocidal intentions over another.

There’s always time to walk away from omelas.

[-] zbyte64@lemmy.blahaj.zone 12 points 3 months ago

To accuse others of being complicit for voting you first have to admit voting works in some way.

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[-] Crashumbc@lemmy.world 8 points 3 months ago

More Trump propaganda on Lemmy I see.

[-] kokopelli@lemmy.world 22 points 3 months ago

This is the opposite?

[-] spujb@lemmy.cafe 10 points 3 months ago

lol