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Just sayin (mander.xyz)
submitted 8 months ago by fossilesque@mander.xyz to c/memes@lemmy.ml
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[-] iAmTheTot@kbin.social 106 points 8 months ago

No one gets a second home until everyone has their first.

[-] BeardedGingerWonder@feddit.uk 61 points 8 months ago

Rental has its place, there have been plenty of occasions in my life where rental suited me better than ownership. Regulation and enforcement of said regulations would do a lot to protect people in this situation.

[-] someguy3@lemmy.world 25 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

Rent apartments. Own houses.

*Since some people really need every combination addressed: Rent/own apartments. Own houses.

[-] Yondoza@sh.itjust.works 15 points 8 months ago

How do you handle situations where people want to live temporarily in houses? An example would be a traveling nurse that doesn't want to be in an apartment building.

[-] Bocky@lemmy.world 11 points 8 months ago

May people prefer to rent houses over owning one. Many of them I speak to tell me they want nothing to do with house maintenance and upkeep and they prefer to rent so that they don’t have to think or worry about any of the repairs. They like being able to just call the property manager when the hot water stops working or when their kiddo accidentally breaks a window.

[-] BritishJ@lemmy.world 12 points 8 months ago

When the kids breaks a window, they still have to pay. They just don't have to source it, which means they might not be getting the best deal.

Plus, most landlords leave things till the last minute or make it such hard work for the tenant to report it, they don't bother.

The maintenance is built into the rent, so they're already paying for it, just not getting the best deal and losing the option to do it how they want.

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[-] thedirtyknapkin@lemmy.world 9 points 8 months ago

that's significantly less bad of a problem than the current issue of no one being able to afford homes. that nurse might just have to go for the apartment... that's really not that big of a deal.

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[-] JoYo@lemmy.ml 6 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

Dude from Ukraine was telling me that most people own condos. He was weirded out that the vast majority of people in the US don't have a vested interest into their neighborhood simply because they believe they won't live there for long.

[-] noobdoomguy8658@feddit.de 6 points 8 months ago

Did he mention that a lot of the real estate that people own in most post-Soviet countries is inherited when (grand)parents die, this being first if not the only step towards the market for most people?

None of the people I know from Russia, Kazakhstan, Ukraine and Belarus bought their first apartments on their own through hard work or anything: it's mostly apartments where your grandma died, apartments that you're either massively helped with or outright gifted by parents when yuu have a significant other to move in with (so both families join funds, most coming from selling some dead relative's apartment) or on a wedding day (a rarer occasion), or some mix of that.

Without any help or gifts, you're lucky to be able to get a mortgage that you can pay off before you're 60 (at least).

The real estate prices outside the US and the EU may seem nicer, but salaries and expenses sure don't.

Everybody is screwed, everywhere.

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[-] Riven@lemmy.dbzer0.com 12 points 8 months ago

People who own second and third homes aren't even the issue. It's mega corps that literally own tens of thousands of homes each. A better way to go about it is to just progressively tax people more per home. That second home gets taxed at the same rate but any home after is taxed way way way more. If someone can still afford it then that's fine, just more tax money coming in. That and don't let corps own rental properties.

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[-] Alsephina@lemmy.ml 7 points 8 months ago

Yup. Housing is for people to live in, not for speculation.

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[-] rekabis@lemmy.ca 58 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

Posted in a Canadian channel before, because I am Canadian:


The housing crisis arises out of one problem, and one problem only:

Housing as an investment.

That’s not to say foreigners are to blame - at less than 2% of the market, they don’t have any real impact. British Columbia’s laws against foreign home ownership is nothing more than a red herring, a bullshit move designed to flame racism and bigotry. Yes, some of them are just looking to build anchors in a prosperous first-world country, but most are honest buyers.

A better move has been the “speculation tax”. By taxing more heavily any home that remains empty, it encourages property holders to actually rent these units out, instead of holding out for people desperate enough to pay their nosebleed-high rents.

But all of this misses the real mark: housing used purely as investment.

Now, to be absolutely clear, I am not talking about landlords who have a “mortgage helper” suite, or who have held on to a home or two that they previously lived in. These are typically the good landlords that we need - those with just two or three rental units, and that aren’t landlording as a business, just as a small top-up to their day job or as an extra plump-up to the retirement funds they are living off of. By having many thousands of separate landlords instead of one monolith, healthy competition is preserved.

No, there are two types of “investors” that I would directly target:

  1. Flippers
  2. Landlords-as-a-business.

1) Flippers

The first group, flippers, also come in two distinct types:

  1. Those that buy up homes “on spec” before ground has even been turned, and then re-sell those same homes for much more than they bought shortly before these homes are completed. Sometimes for twice as much as they paid.
  2. Those that buy up an older, tired home, slap on a coat of paint, spackle over holes in the walls, paper over the major flaws in hopes that inspectors don’t catch them, and shove in an ultra-cheap but shiny Ikea kitchen that will barely last a decade, then re-sell it for much more than they paid for it.

Both of these groups have contributed to the massive rise in housing purchase prices over the last thirty years. For a family that could afford a 3Bdrm home in 2000, their wages have only increased by half again, while home values have gone up by five times by 2023.

And this all comes down to speculation driving up the cost of homes.

So how do we combat this? Simple: to make it more attractive for owner-occupiers to buy a home than investors.

A family lives in a home that they own for an average of 8 years. Some less, most a lot more. We start by taxing any home sale at 100% for any owner who hasn’t lived in said home as their primary residence for at least two years (730 contiguous days). We then do a straight line depreciation from the end of the second year down to 0% taxation at the end of the eighth year. Or maybe we be kind and use a sigmoid curve to tax the last two years very minimally.

Exceptions can exist, of course, for those who have been widowed, or deployed overseas, or in the RCMP and deployed elsewhere in Canada, or where the house has been ordered to be sold by the court for divorce proceedings, and so forth. But simple bankruptcy would not be eligible, because it would be abused as a loophole.

But the point here is that homes will then become available to those working-class people who have been desperate to get off of the rental merry-go-round, but who have been unable to because home prices have been rising much faster than their down payment ever could.

This tax would absolutely cut investors off at the knees. Flippers would have to live in a home much, much longer, and spec flippers would be put entirely out of business, because they can’t even live in that house until it is fully completed in the first place.


2) Landlords-as-a-business

The second group is much simpler. It involves anyone who has ever bought a home purely to rent it back out, seeking to become a parasite on the backs of working-class Canadians in order to generate a labour-free revenue stream that would replace their day job. Some of these are individuals, but some of these are also businesses. To which there would be two simple laws created:

  1. It would become illegal for any business to hold any residential property whatsoever that was in a legally habitable state. This wouldn’t prevent businesses from building homes, but it would prevent a business from buying up entire neighbourhoods just to monopolize that area and jack up the rent to the maximum that the market could bear.
  2. Any individual owning more than 5 (or so) rental units (not just homes!) would be re-classified as operating as a business, and therefore become ineligible to own any of them - they would have to immediately sell all of them.

As for № 2, a lot of loopholes can exist that a sharp reader would immediately identify. So we close them, too.

  • Children under 24 “operate as a business” automatically with any rental unit. They are allowed ZERO. Because who TF under the age of 25 is wealthy enough to own rental units? No-one, unless these units were “gifted” to them from their parents, in an attempt to skirt the law. So that is one loophole closed.
  • Additional immediate family members are reduced by half in the number of rental units they can own. So if a husband has the (arbitrary, for the sake of argument) maximum limit of five, the wife can only have two herself. Any other family member who wants to own a rental unit, and who does not live in the same household, must provide full disclosure to where their money is coming from, and demonstrate that it is not coming from other family members who already own rental units.

By severely constraining the number of investors in the market, more housing becomes available to those who actually want to stop being renters. Actual working-class people can exit the rental market, reducing demand for rental units, and therefore reducing rental prices. These lower rental prices then make landlording less attractive, reducing the investor demand for homes and reducing bidding wars by deep-pocketed investors, eventually reducing overall home values for those who actually want to buy a home to live in it.

Plus, landlords will also become aware of the tax laid out in the first section that targets flippers. If they own rental units that they have never lived in as their primary residence, they will also be unable to sell these units for anything other than a steep loss. They will then try to exit the market before such a tax comes into effect, flooding the market with homes and causing prices to crash. They know that they are staring down two massive problems:

Being stuck with a high-cost asset (purchase price) that only produces a low-revenue stream because renters have exited the market by buying affordable homes, allowing plenty of stock that is pincered by the spec tax that heavily taxes empty rental units, thereby lowering rental prices well beneath the cost of the mortgage on the unit.

By putting these two tools into effect at the same time, we force a massive exodus of landlords out of the marketplace, crashing home values to where they become affordable to working-class people, thereby massively draining the numbers of renters looking for places to rent. Those places still being rented out - by owners who have previously lived in them, or by investors who couldn’t sell in time - would significantly outnumber renters looking for a place to rent, thereby crashing rental prices as renters could then dictate rents by being able to walk away from unattractive units or abusive landlords.

Full disclosure: I own, I don’t rent. But I have vanishingly little sympathy for greed-obsessed parasites that suck the future out of hard-working Canadians who must pay 60% or more of their wages for shitbox rentals to abusive landlords in today’s marketplace. Most people (and pretty much anyone under the age of 30) who don’t already own no longer have any hope of ever owning a house, as their ability to build a down payment shrinks every year, while home values accelerate into the stratosphere.

[-] AlolanYoda@mander.xyz 6 points 8 months ago

I did not read all of this yet. But I always agreed with you on that housing as an investment was the crux of the problem, I just never knew exactly how to tackle it. Your write-up is great, and even if there are many issues that could arise from some of the implementation ideas, it's an amazing beginning to a conversation we should have been having for at least decades.

Thank you very much! I will save this comment to come back to often.

[-] flambonkscious@sh.itjust.works 5 points 8 months ago

That's a quality rant, I love it! The other guy had a point about zoning to allow greater density, but I think that's a separate but related issue.

Obviously these will never come to pass while your leaders are all landlords, though

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[-] Dirk@lemmy.ml 55 points 8 months ago

No person should be allowed to own more residential property than they're realistically need for living.

[-] TimeSquirrel@kbin.social 13 points 8 months ago

I'm just curious how we'll define "realistic", because someone who's into just software programming might be satisfied with a studio apartment. I can't live without my basement workshop however. I like to make stuff.

[-] Dirk@lemmy.ml 20 points 8 months ago

That's valid. But, for example: You don't need a dozen of different houses.

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[-] frezik@midwest.social 44 points 8 months ago

A co-op is another form of corporation. Dense, multi-family structures should be done that way.

What we don't want is for housing to be a speculative investment. Remove the profit motive of holding a house that's empty and reselling.

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[-] snake_cased@lemmy.ml 38 points 8 months ago

Landownership is wrong all together.

If you think about it, it is completely absurd, why anyone assumes the right to 'own' a piece of land. Or even more land than the other guy. Someone must have been the person to first come up with the idea of ownership, but it is and was never based on anything other than an idea, and we should question it.

After all inheritance of landownership is a major cornerstone of our unjust and exploitative society.

[-] UnrepententProcrastinator@lemmy.ca 30 points 8 months ago

Every generation, people want to try new things and it's nice. But landownership can and has been and good thing in a way that just going back to "anarchy" wouldn't work. E.g. creation of ghettos, who gets to farm the best land, etc.

So then the suggestions are that the land are owned and "managed" by the state apparatus. Now we have a few famines in history to show us how gaining favor in a political system is not the best way to manage the land.

I'm open to better suggestions but just shitting on land ownership seems easy and unproductive.

[-] Aasikki@sopuli.xyz 20 points 8 months ago

If someone owns a house, they kinda have to own at the very least some land around it. I just don't really see any other way for that to work. Would be interesting to hear how that could work otherwise.

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[-] Blue_Morpho@lemmy.world 12 points 8 months ago

Now we have a few famines in history to show us how gaining favor in a political system is not the best way to manage the land.

Doesn't that also mean The Irish famine shows private land ownership isn't the best way to manage land?

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[-] DragonTypeWyvern@literature.cafe 10 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

Define for the class what you think anarchy means, and, wait one minute, you think ghettos are created by people not recognizing private land ownership?

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[-] Blackmist@lemmy.world 21 points 8 months ago

That's all well and good but I don't want you living in my garden.

[-] nexguy@lemmy.world 6 points 8 months ago

People like the idea of the stability ownership offers. You can't be kicked out of your house or off your land you own because your income dropped out lost a job. How would you suggest this stability is maintained?

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[-] Norgur@kbin.social 31 points 8 months ago

That sounds like a solution but isn't. In my experience, the corporations I had as landlords were completely aware of what they are allowed to do and are obligated to do. The private landlords I had were the craziest bitches imaginable. Stuff didn't happen as it should have, laws were intentionally misinterpreted and twisted, etc.
The reason why my experience differs so much is laws. Here in Germany, we've got strong renter's protection laws. They are still too weak in some places but really, really clear in most. So while my private landlord tried to make me pay for repairs, the company doesn't bother with such illegal bullshit, sends over a contractor they work with regularly and shit gets done.

[-] AnarchoSnowPlow@midwest.social 12 points 8 months ago

We have those problems here (the US) too but the greater problem is that corporations buying up homes is driving increases in housing prices. Greater housing prices leads to higher rent and higher mortgage payments, fucking over regular people every which way, unless of course you happened to buy your home 30 years ago, in which case everything's peachy and you can reverse mortgage yourself into a vacation home in Boca.

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[-] scrubbles@poptalk.scrubbles.tech 22 points 8 months ago

We have one area of actual steady investment in our lives - our homes. And they can't handle us making a tiny bit of money

[-] Gradually_Adjusting@lemmy.world 17 points 8 months ago

I need an ironic WWII style scaremongering propaganda poster about class war. The 1% have class awareness. Do you?

[-] kamenlady@lemmy.world 10 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

Scrath's comment made me check with Bing - i put your comment as the prompt, word by word:

Edit: a week later i was wondering how far image generators get political context right. So i tried the same prompt on civitai ( without any additional resources ). Bing did a better job with the context, at least it repeated some of the input.

[-] Gradually_Adjusting@lemmy.world 6 points 8 months ago

I like the otter bat dudes. 😁

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[-] ruplicant@sh.itjust.works 17 points 8 months ago

no real estate taxes for the first house owned, heavy and progressive taxes starting on the second, is an idea

companies get called people all the time, i'm starting to believe it, but i still think they don't need shelter, so they shouldn't be able to aquire a basic human need

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[-] Easyreever@lemmy.world 16 points 8 months ago

Or contribute to political campaigns….or a thousand other things they abuse.

[-] set_secret@lemmy.world 15 points 8 months ago

investors should not be able to either.

[-] GardeningSadhu@lemm.ee 11 points 8 months ago
[-] bruhduh@lemmy.world 6 points 8 months ago

B-but CoRpOrAtIoNs Is PeOpLe

[-] Neato@ttrpg.network 7 points 8 months ago

I'll believe corporations are people when Texas executes one.

Weirdly enough new York is on track to do that with Trump's company.

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[-] ynthrepic@lemmy.world 6 points 8 months ago

Cries in New Zealand

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