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56
Democrats seek to reassure Europe about post-Trump America (www.bbc.com)
submitted 18 hours ago by CAVOK@lemmy.world to c/europe@feddit.org
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[–] HowRu68@lemmy.world 4 points 6 hours ago* (last edited 6 hours ago) (1 children)

Democrats seek to reassure Europe about post-Trump America

This whole thing is so awfully awkward and unreal. Maybe I'm being too cynical, but;

  • If Democrats are trying to reassure Europe, that's a very bad sign
  • If they do that, it's becasue they feel, need or want to use Europe to get some leverage against Trump
  • Somehow they perceive that Europe can or should save US from itself
  • They are asking Europe because there's no-one else.

If anything, its actually a sign of how dire the situation is, because they fear there might not be a democracy left Post-Trump.

If there is anything I can read into this, it's best if we all be prepared for the worst.

Especially, condidering UK send an aircraft carrier to Greenland in context of the Munich Sec Conference and that a noteworthy letter was send to UK & German newspapers, quote:

" (..), the complexity of threats demands a whole-of-society approach and an honest, continent-wide conversation with the public that defence cannot be the preserve of uniformed personnel alone. It is a task for each and every one of us."

[–] plyth@feddit.org 1 points 3 minutes ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity_House_Agreement

Interestingly there is no French or Italian version of the article, while this seems to be a major cooperation .

The treaty doesn't mention anything specific whereas the Wikipedia article mentions

Surveillance flights by the German Armed Forces from Scotland (RAF Lossiemouth)

Which should be about

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GIUK_gap

like the submarine cooperation with Norway, in German: https://marineforum.online/deutsch-norwegische-u-boot-kooperation/

It's not only the Baltics that seems to be in danger.

[–] notsosure@sh.itjust.works 11 points 10 hours ago

Sorry yankees: Trump is a symptom, not a cause.

[–] Bubbaonthebeach@lemmy.ca 3 points 7 hours ago

Trump may be gone but he's pulled back the curtain and exposed the US for who they are. Too many in the US fully support him. Even many Democrats support at least some of what he does.

[–] ALF839@piefed.social 31 points 15 hours ago (3 children)

IF the US survives Trump (we'll see if he allows the midterms to happen) we still cannot allow another chance to be betrayed by a close ally. The MAGA cult will not evaporate even with a democrat president. Europe needs to focus on two main issues, energy and tech independence. At the same time we should try to eradicate the American military presence in Europe and bolster our own armies. An United Europe is impenatrable, both economically and militarily.

[–] Tehbaz@lemmy.wtf 7 points 12 hours ago

There needs to be a mass-deprogramming & reeducation campaign for MAGA cult members after this regime is gone. They need to understand the damage that Trump and the GOP has done was only possible because they blindly supported a pedophile demagogue.

All of the collaborators who facilitated the excesses of the regime must be put on trial, that includes Congress, Supreme Court, cabinet members, corporate media and billionaire donors. If they are not prosecuted they will take control again.

[–] krashmo@lemmy.world 1 points 15 hours ago

That last sentence could be true, but if the US can't keep national cohesion together the EU probably can't either. One of our big problems is cultural diversity providing avenues for division to take root. The US is infinitely more homogeneous than the EU. I don't think Europeans are prepared to act like a unified society outside of a few common interests. I still think they should try, but I also think that means something vastly different to citizens in the different nations of the EU.

[–] plyth@feddit.org -1 points 12 hours ago* (last edited 12 hours ago) (1 children)

The United American States is what gave us the US. Trump is already promising something like an impenatrable America, both economically and militarily.

The danger lies in giving in to that thought, for multiple reasons.

First of, the combined rest of the world is stronger, economically and militarily, if not the US or China alone. Investing so much in weapons that the EU is impenatrable will bancrupt the EU like it bancrupted the USSR.

Secondly, trying to be the dominating power will destroy our ability to win all the small countries as partners. Only seeking cooperation with the rest of the world will bring security.

Thirdly, it's essentially a fascist mindset and will destroy the EU from within.

[–] Melchior@feddit.org 1 points 12 hours ago (1 children)

Becoming impenetrable is defensive and not offensive. It is also needed, if you do not want to be bullied by the US or China. If you can be, then why would smaller countries want the EU as a partner.

[–] plyth@feddit.org 2 points 12 hours ago (1 children)

The sum of all small countries is bigger than the US or China. Small countries want as much independence as the EU. That's a goal that can be achieved together.

How could the EU become impenetrable? That's an impossible goal. The US tries, with their golden dome. But in this world, security lies in MAD, mutual assured destruction.

[–] Melchior@feddit.org 3 points 11 hours ago (1 children)

How could the EU become impenetrable? That’s an impossible goal. The US tries, with their golden dome. But in this world, security lies in MAD, mutual assured destruction.

MAD is how you do it in a practical way and the EU lacks that ability besides France. It is certainly not assured enough to be a proper deterrent. Other then that a conventional force is needed to be able to deal with lower level threats. For that a bunch of military systems need to be set up, which do not use US tech(AWACS, anti submarine planes, spy satellites, communication satellites and a bunch more).

The sum of all small countries is bigger than the US or China. Small countries want as much independence as the EU. That’s a goal that can be achieved together.

If the US or China can bully an ally you rely on into giving you up, then you are not properly independent.

[–] plyth@feddit.org 1 points 11 hours ago

which do not use US tech

The US MIC was possible because other countries have kept US dollars which allowed the US to spend them twice, once to import products and once to pay engineers to develop military technology.

The EU can't use their engineers to create cars and AWACS. Things would have to change massively to compete and develop everything twice, like North Korean levels of modesty in compensation for workers.

If the US or China can bully an ally you rely

Like Lemmy, don't rely on a single country, and support the bullied. Of course, if the EU keeps silent, like with Venezuela, Kuba or Iran, countries will have to give in to the threats and actions.

[–] Fishy@lemmy.world 33 points 17 hours ago (1 children)

So people joke about Obama getting the Nobel prize but it felt like it was the rest of the world rewarding the US for choosing sanity after 8 years of Bush.

There was a hope for things to get back to “normal”. Before then I remember Americans often wore Canadian flags cause the hatred was so high. I think people forget how badly the US fucked up then. (And this was the general feeling—not just the left who are well aware of the decades of problematic behaviour)

We’ve welcomed the US back once. Never again.

You keep fucking up the entire world because of your egos and your hate.

No “we’ve changed” or “we will change” rhetoric will work again until those who have caused this face consequences.

Fix yourselves before appealing for forgiveness.

[–] Bustedknuckles@lemmy.world 2 points 13 hours ago (3 children)

I get it, we don't deserve trust. What would you look for to decide we can be trusted again though? I'm worried we'd need to rewrite the constitution to put in serious guardrails of some sort. Congress and Judiciary were supposed to be the guardrail, and they're failing pretty hard. What system can truly protect against bad actors with power?

[–] MousePotatoDoesStuff@lemmy.world 1 points 1 hour ago

Moving to a parliamentary system would be good, for example.

[–] pmk@piefed.ca 3 points 8 hours ago

Trust takes time. No set of laws can be trusted until we have seen them work in practice. It will take time.

[–] Fishy@lemmy.world 3 points 13 hours ago

There are many systems that can work. I don’t think anyone in the rest of the world cares how you implement and safeguard the democracy. Just that you do it.

I think what is needed to repair relationships outward — and something that so many nonMAGA Americans lack — is humility. Look at the arrogance the UK had over Brexit and where they are today (albeit it could still get worse for them with reform). But they are moving slowly back to Europe and they will have a much lower standing for a very long time because of their utter stupidity. Thats what it will likely be, but amplified even more, for you guys. The trust is truly shattered.

[–] copacetic@discuss.tchncs.de 40 points 18 hours ago (1 children)

Even if Trump is gone in three years, the MAGA people are still there and so is Vance, Thiel, Musk, and others. That doesn’t sound very reassuring to me.

[–] a_non_monotonic_function@lemmy.world 1 points 6 hours ago

The billionaire is basically have everything locked in right now. They've even managed to just walk right into government institutions to f*** things up steal our data and fire people without the authority.

They're going to go to war with us financially next.

[–] mrsilkworm@piefed.social 32 points 17 hours ago (2 children)

When the glass is broken and trust is gone, it takes a lot if time, if any to heal. Europe should just go for strategic autonomy, in energy, defence, tech, anywhere. Then deal with whomever as equal and not as a subservient. I'm sure Democrats would not object that kind of relationship

[–] BestBouclettes@jlai.lu 7 points 16 hours ago (1 children)

Of course they'd object, they want vassals, not allies. Republicans are a whole lot more vocal and obvious about it.

[–] Bustedknuckles@lemmy.world 4 points 13 hours ago (2 children)

It's worth noting that everyday Dems often want very different things than the "leadership Dems" that are in power under corporate and foreign influence. I don't want vassals - a tiny silver lining of Trump is American hegemony in decline. Thats only a good if Authoritarians don't step into that gap. I hope EU can be the standard bearer and defender of liberal (as opposed to illiberal) democracy in the world until we get our shit together

[–] NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io 1 points 2 hours ago

Thats only a good if Authoritarians don't step into that gap

No, it's good even if authoritarians (thinking of China here) step into the gap. It's hard for Europeans to properly appreciate how absurdly evil US hegemony is and has been, and how much blood is on their hands for supporting it/kowtowing to it over the years. I'd rather have China as the world hegemon than, say, France frankly, and that's not out of my love for China; the EU has a lot of introspection to do if it wants to avoid America's fate, and I find this narrative of the EU as the innocent victim unfairly bullied by big brother America/last bastion of human rights to be very counterproductive towards that end.

[–] BestBouclettes@jlai.lu 1 points 13 hours ago

Yeah exactly, when I say Democrats, it's the establishment Democrats, not the average Democrat voters (at least, I hope so).

[–] Skyrmir@lemmy.world 5 points 16 hours ago

Economically the EU is an equal, the issue is military and overall cohesiveness. The EU needs to be able to act unilaterally in ways that are going to piss off it's own member states. The challenge is creating a framework where that's possible, without creating an unaccountable force, or constant bickering indecision.

[–] Gates9@sh.itjust.works 10 points 14 hours ago* (last edited 14 hours ago)

Trump is the result of decades of continuity in U.S. foreign and domestic policy. He’s not an aberration. “Good cop, bad cop”, nobody’s buying it anymore.

[–] sepiroth154@feddit.nl 13 points 17 hours ago

Like a toxic ex going "but I've changed"...

[–] NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io 9 points 16 hours ago

The bad news: Yeah no, because there's no political will in America to actually address the root cause that lead to this.

The "good" news: Yeah no, because MAGA isn't going anywhere, so we don't need to test this theory.

[–] mgtzbos@lemmy.world 8 points 16 hours ago (1 children)

so dems have a message for europe. where is the message for us citizens? who’s the priority - citizens or businesses worried about their wallets as europe turns away from us businesses (TECH)? i’m curious how they think they will repair our country and democracy.

[–] AnnieByniaeth@feddit.uk 9 points 16 hours ago (1 children)

There's a widespread view in Europe, which I happen to share, that the US is lost - for a considerable time. It's unlikely to be a dependable ally for at least a generation.

This is going to hurt Europe, but in the longer term US isolationism will hurt the US more than it will hurt the rest of the world. It makes a lot of sense for the opposition party in the US to be trying to prepare the ground for a repair of those relationships if and when they gett into power.

Good luck to them, but I think it's going to be too late.

[–] Zanshi@lemmy.world 3 points 14 hours ago

I don't think the dems will try to fix anything if they get into power. They will try to appear more moderate but I don't think they will really back out of the most changes. They're paid off by the same masters.

[–] Aqarius@lemmy.world 6 points 16 hours ago

It's just a little slimy, it's still good!

-Homer chasing after the runaway roast hog.

[–] Zwuzelmaus@feddit.org 4 points 17 hours ago

The deer's famous last words, out of the lion's mouth: "This is not as bad as it looks!"

[–] truthfultemporarily@feddit.org 2 points 17 hours ago

lol