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Well they made college and grad school cost upwards of 200k+ so no shit
My friends and I talked way back in school about how further engineering education was negatively correlated (not exactly: see comment) with pay after a bachelors and was statistically a terrible deal.
EDIT: That's not to say it's worthless! But it ain't worth what they're charging. There isn't actually a negative correlation in the strict sense but rather there isn't clearly a premium for the degree in all markets. You can be taking a straight up financial loss. The original statement was inaccurate, but that's historically what we told each other.
It kind of depends on what you want to do. I worked almost 10 years at a consulting firm that specialized in failure analysis and they loved hiring PhD metalutgists and Masters grads in specific engineering disciplines.
This was partially because that specialization helps in niche cases and partially because it helps market smaller companies as competent if you can say "I have 4 phds on staff for X, Y, and Z, one is a professor at (technical university name here)"
The team leads or project leads were always older engineers who only had their bachelor's degrees (and experience) but would shit talk professors and advanced degrees when the "academics" weren't around though. It was a REALLY toxic situation and ultimately led to me leaving. (I'm a BS Mech btw)
Your a bullshit mechanic? Damn that's a useful skill in this day and age.
Lot of low effort bullshit going on. We could use something right and proper
Professionals have standards. I'm not sure there is an ISO standard for BS but N.I.S.T was probably working on one before the current administration gutted the funding for being woke.
I’m sure it depends on where you go, but going to MIT or Stanford is likely too expensive to justify, even if you are good enough to get and graduate.
These high status schools provide lifetime connections and in-groups that are irreplaceable and not found elsewhere.
You are essentially guaranteed to be connected to people in power and wealth by going to these schools.
Sure not everyone is able to capitalize on that but being a Harvard alumus is a legitimate and recognized status among ivy grads and especially among other Harvard alumni. Im sure MIT and Stanford are comparable but this is the real reason people want to go these schools.
Yeah I went to a cheap state school for an engineering degree. Sure I still haven't paid it off yet, but it was definitely financially worth it. Even more worth it if you consider how much I don't want to do uneducated labor for a living.
Uneducated labor isn't only manual labor. Lot of uneducated folks have mad skills. We're just not curing cancer or inventing new batteries or planning trips to Mars.
I'm a technical lead for a software company (that's not a non-degreed position generally but 30 years of experience can take you far in any field), my wife is a customer service manager / trainer who has presented to a nationwide audience, my oldest daughter is a bank manager.
My son broke the mold and got a nursing degree and currently makes less working harder than any of us. That said, it was 100% the right choice for him. He has a passion for patient care and I'm sure he'll go far.
"They" are the ones who want less education. Uneducated people are more easily controlled.
I recall a podcast I listened to years ago talking about some schools trying out a new model that worked something like...
Instead of taking out a loan, you just enter into a contract with the school that x% of your paycheck for the first z years after graduation go to the school. Kinda like child support.
Get an unemployable degree and now your making burgers for minimum wage? Then you don't owe anything.
Get an amazing job that pays a ton? That degree is going to cost you.
Now it's in the school's best interest to A) offer degrees that are actually worth something instead of misleading students down a dead end path, and B) help students find and keep good positions after graduation.
It sounded awesome. But what I found infuriating were the people they interviewed that benefitted from the program, now had fantastic high salary jobs, and were whining about how much they were having to pay for the education and program that got them into that high paying job in the first place.
I proposed this to a boomer 15 years ago and man was he so angry at the thought of wages being garnished to pay loans for 10 years.
Like how does that change the situation if I have to pay regardless? If anything it might be great for me to reduce my taxable income.
The issue with this is that knowledge should be it's own reward. Where I live college costs a pittance. If you want to study fine art, that course should be available and is.
What you're suggesting sounds great in a very practical respect but would only further benefit capitalism at the cost of wider knowledge. Many of the things that are worth learning in life to so many would immediately disappear from college curriculums.
The goal should be to make third level education cheap enough that anyone can do it without crippling themselves financially.
this is kinda the way australia works for citizens: the government sets the cost of courses (usually about $10000-$20000AUD per semester) and then pays for them entirely, and you get a HELP debt with the government which is kinda like an interest free (though indexed so it doesn’t get cheaper with time) loan which is automatically taken out of your paycheque pre-tax and only after you start earning a certain amount… if you never earn that bottom limit, the debt disappears if you die
To be clear, this is an issue with the cost, not with the degrees
The cost is so high because companies require degrees for jobs that don’t need them.
It's an issue with cost, but that also extends to the perception of the degree itself. Even a few decades ago I always found American culture to be generally more disdainful towards degrees and degree holders than most of Europe or Asia.
One of the worst things you can be in America is "elitist"; it's a loaded word that describes a fundamentally Un-American attitude. And you can see why - there's plenty of idiots with rich parents and a degree, and a lot of intelligent people with poor parents and no degree. So elitism and intellectual snobbery also imply classism and racism.
In countries with free/cheap tertiary education, it's less controversial to say that people who are qualified to do a thing are likely to be better at that thing, and that getting qualifications is inherently a good thing.
It's an NBC news poll so I'm not sure it's easy to find much more info on the poll or its history.
Here's a chart showing previous responses:
Duh, civilized countries make education free because it;s a net win for the country. If your politics makes that a bad, dunno, sorry for your loss...
I was going to make a similar point. More people with college degrees is a big win for any society. And lots of degree programs are incredibly valuable even if they aren’t training for a specific job. The problem is we’ve set it up as a direct profit choice for the individual.
25% of unemployed Americans have a 4 year degree
It would be more interesting to see the comparison between unemployment rates among 4-year-degree-holders and unemployment rates among non-4-year-degree holders
2.5% for 4 year degree holders
4.2% for those with only a high school diploma and 6.2% for those without a high school diploma
My job has me on college campuses several times a month, and I often speak individually with over a thousand college students a month.
There is real fear among these students. Many have done everything right, planned a career, took the classes in order since middle school to get there, took out thousands in student loans, all knowing that it will be worth it to get a good job that will pay well for an entire career...
Only to find out halfway through college that corporations are replacing all their software developers with AI, and the career path they've been following since they were a kid, no longer exists.
But they still owe their student loans, even if their Plan B career, which they hadn't considered until they couldn't find a post-graduation job in their field, pays barely more than minimum wage.
Much to the joy of GOP politicians everywhere.
At 18, I went to community college. During my 2 years there, I absolutely fucked my credit by getting credit cards and not paying it back.
So thinking my credit was bad, I decided I couldn't afford University. So I just decided to lie that I had a degree and just kept doing interviews and when it came down to the background checks, I didn't lie.
About 20% of the companies I got an offer for talked to the hiring manager who cared about my fake degree. The rest just turned a blind eye or didn't care.
At 46, I don't lie anymore. After 20 years in the industry, They just care about places I worked and responsibilities I had.
The role models are all dumb corrupt sacks of shit that are on the long road of decline until sometime find out again that meritocracy is better at providing quality.
Shame those lessons need learning time and again.
Very noticeable here in the US how much college has become unaffordable and out of reach
Shows in everyday life here from the conversations to just any day to day interaction
In the media all comes out like it is made for young school kids with the words getting smaller and simpler with less sentence structures
Even if voting was not rigged here can tell with way people see our elected officials as football team members to rally behind
Higher education becoming unattainable will lead a country to poorer health, more underpaid factory workers, less quality of life for everyone, less progress, more repeated failures from history, etcetera
Conservatives: Then get a high demand and high paying job!
the field becomes too competitive and saturated and couldn't find jobs
Also conservatives: Then work in a factory!
factory jobs gets taken over by AI
Conservatives for the final and umpteenth time: Fuck you!
I've been telling people this for years: Post-secondary educational institutions are no longer about education; they're a business. They do everything they can to maximize profits, and don't really care about the quality of education.
I realized that back in high school, which is why I never went to college. I kept telling people I didn't want to go into debt when I didn't even really know what I wanted to do with my life.
Student debt has been increasing faster than ceo pay. Its not a sustainable system but it also will lead to more companies importing workers with hb1 visas, which is probably honestly the corporate plan.
Why pay for workers with rights to go to school when you can just import people who already have a degree you didnt pay for and who you can treat like shit?
The problem is the cost of college is opaque. They show an upfront cost, but something like 2/3rds of students don’t actually pay that price. Schools have learned they can get more out of people by setting a high price and then giving “aid” discounts than charging a flat price that is affordable to everyone. Also, schools measure themselves by “prestige” and that is determined by admission rate. Schools are luxury brands and they do what luxury brands do… manufacture scarcity. The result is they’re looting the livelihoods of young adults by putting them into indentured servitude. Higher education needs to be reformed. It isn’t the fault of professors. It’s the administrators.
Well, the price of a four year degree skyrocketed, while the financial return for most degrees is essentially zero. Not that there isn't value beyond monetary compensation to be had in getting alot of degrees but they now come packaged with a lifetime of student loan debt if you're not wealthy or lucky enough to get scholarship money.
Dramatic? It was practically manufactured.
I never did but I’m now middle aged and stuck in my career without one. I’m right now planning on finding a competency based program to try to speedrun, so I can stop working on implementing others peoples broken garbage.
I have bad news for you. You can get a PhD and you'll still be implementing other people's broken garbage.
Community college admissions continue to rise because of this. Even students with excellent grades in high school bypass the 4-year institutions as long as possible. It's the same classes either way. Why pay 10 times more?
As someone absolutely killing themself to barely tread water with a fairly well paying job after getting a graduate degree, the kids are unfortunately correct.
Of course it's being seen that way.
If I were to go to my university this year, doing the same course I'd have:
£9250 x 4 = £37000 for the 4 year course
£9504 x 4 = £38016 for rental accommodation including bills (I picked a rental property that included bills for ease of calculation)
£5000 x 4 = £20000 for food (based on £100/week)
That's £95016
And how much of my degree do I use day to day? Jack shit. Anyone starting my job technically does not need a degree. I work with a niche piece of software that is well known in it's field but outside of that is not. No degree would ever cover this
Good maybe we will finally have some market correction and colleges realize they are not a staple for the American dream anymore.
We need to stop saying "American Dream." It's really beating a dead horse at this point. It feels like such a fictional concept to me.
IMO, being educated should be at least a minimum wage job, paid by the government. This would allow students to focus on learning their crafts, instead of being distracted by part-time jobs.
There are still plenty of jobs that are gated by a college credential. Tech was the biggest way aorund skipping it, and tech is imploding.