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the timings for school and its length were not dictated by health needs nor education needs.
it was chosen to match parents work schedule, and to aclimatize children to factory work.
so its not out of ignorance of the childs well-being, but indifference to it
it was chosen to match parents work schedule
I can't find a good source, but from what I've seen its actually student work schedules that dictate school start times.
Elementary and Middle Schools tend to start much later in the day (in part to conserve buses). But local Chambers of Commerce and Rotary Club groups will often lobby for earlier high school start times so that students are out of school in time for a 5pm work shift.
In some countries the school start at 6.30 AM so that parents can take their children to school before they start work at 8 AM.
https://doi.org/10.1038/s41582-025-01106-6
Abstract: "Aspects of modern society, such as artificial lighting and rigid schedules, create ‘social jetlag’ — a mismatch between biological chronotypes and societal demands. This circadian misalignment particularly affects evening chronotypes, leading to sleep deprivation, mental health issues and physical disorders. Flexible schedules and environmental modifications could restore natural sleep patterns and improve well-being."
High school teacher here. Obviously, I don't speak for everyone, but many of us wish school would start at a more reasonable time for students. We don't enjoy trying to teach first (and second, and third) period classes where many students are either absent or asleep. And of course, we care about the students and know it would be much healthier for them to sleep in. School can start around 10:00, thanks. But, as others have pointed out, the schedule is not dictated by what is best for the students.
Edit: some of the students in the schools I work at have to get up around 5:00. The often wait for 30+ minutes for buses to come (but that is a "the district doesn't care about the students" issue, not a start time issue).
One reason for the early starts for high schools is that by staggering the start times for high school, middle school, and elementary school, school districts can use fewer buses and fewer drivers. If all the schools started at the same (more reasonable) time, you'd need three times as many buses and drivers and each driver would only get one or two hours a day (and thus would find something else to do, making the existing shortage of drivers even worse). The district I drive for has a transportation budget of about $3 million a year - we would not be able to afford $9 million a year and still afford our administrators' enormous salaries.
If you just started all schools later by an hour, the elementary school kids would start at 9:30 AM which would not work out very well, either.
East Asian countries solve this by having the kids take public transit; just run a few extra buses and trains on the routes kids take, then you don't need dedicated vehicles that sit idle all day.
With trains all you have to do is add an extra passenger car or two for the peak times and keep the number of trains running the same. You could also increase frequency during peak times if you have the track, train and driver availability to do that
I dunno, that sounds like socialism.
Good thing we were saved from the horrors of broadly accessible and efficient mass transit decades ago.
Could you imagine how dangerous mass transit would be if it was full of middle schoolers, calling out your biggest insecurities, while you’re just trying to get to work? John Mulaney educated us on the danger of them years ago.
Not sure which ones you're talking about, but in Hong Kong, schoolchildren just walk to school. There's usually a school attached to each housing estate.
If I remember correctly most of the suggestions to account for that actually has elementary and middle schoolers start before high schoolers since high schoolers are the ones that need the most sleep while also struggling the most to go to sleep early
They don't need to push everyone later, they just need to start the younger kids early, and the older kids later, which is the opposite of what most districts do now. Pre-teens have no problem getting up at 6AM.
I was in my late 20s when I realised just how much stress morning stuff is causing me, and had caused me for two decades.
(my solution was just to come to the office at 11 most days & now I also sleep more hours on average, but that's is a separate issue for me)
Yea that only happens because capitalism needs your parents to slave their ass off which can only happen if their kids go to school earlier than their already early starting job
Generally, I don't think that applies to high schoolers. They can manage themselves in the morning. We should have their school start last
America also has some deep structural issues that children aren't able to get to school by themselves. In Japan, grade school children are able to get to and from school by themselves in most of the country. In America, parents aren't allowed to leave children unattended, and certainly aren't allowed to let them go to school alone
Since the whole problem lies with parents' work schedule, we should all push work time to begin at 10am instead of 8am, so kids can get to school a bit later in the morning. Everybody gets to sleep a bit more. Problem fucking solved
But then I would have to work until 8pm. That sounds horrible.
7pm if you take an hour lunch, 6pm if you don't take a lunch.
I've worked a 10-7 shift before. Some people hated it, but I actually loved it. I got to stay up every night to a reasonable 12-1, okay videogames with friends, slept until a nice morning, woke up and drove to work. It was by far the best work shift time I've ever had. It also helped that I lived 3 minutes away, so I would literally wake up at like 9, sss, then drive to work. Saved so much gas at that job hahaha. I'd fill up my Corolla like once a month as long as I didn't visit friends too much. And I was in an apartment with underground parking, so the uv damage to my car was like nothing.
The only downside is you don't get to do errands during the week. Which.... If you plan very very well isn't an issue, but more often than not was an issue.
Every year I tell timetabling "don't inflict 9am classes on my students, it provably punishes poorer students (commute costs) and drives poor engagement", every year they ignore me.
Many of your teachers hated morning classes too.
i still have nightmares about school
Now think about what your parents went through
Schools near me have shifted high school start times to later. Its been that was for years now.
It is really weird to see it in mainstream news now, and even RFK is for it (that fucking weirdo).
I thought letting teens sleep in late was blue state woke and would never be nationwide.
Fox news found a Hypnotist that said teens should sleep later. A hypnotist... really fox? Even when they are right they are still stupid fucks.
Schools - and some businesses - see getting up early as some kind of achievement, a trait to be proud of. A thought that was mirrored in the influencer scene with the insane 'grindset' videos. Get up early and get done more than the others... Completely ignoring that the amount of sleep we need doesn't change with how early you get up.
Some people get up early and have no problem with that, but that's not the case for everyone. In the dawn of time, it was better to have some people who get up early and some who prefer to stay up late: that way the tribe was better protected because the time where everyone was sleeping was minimized.
Now everyone who biologically tends to be more productive when they can work late and get up late is painted as lazy and forced to work against their inner clock.
Actually, many teachers oppose early start times, and perfect attendance awards are disappearing every year, too.
Then you get old and look forward to getting in bed by 8PM.
Started 7:15, lived an hour by bus away so I woke up at 5:10. Bus was at 5:36. That was some uphill both ways shit for me. We did have weekly intermittent afternoon and morning schedules though. So one week we'd start at 7:15 and one week it started at like 2PM. Afternoon weeks were nice when I'd come home at like 9 or 10PM.
Sounds like that would make it impossible to maintain a consistent sleep schedule, which is also helpful.
Highschool used to start at 7:00 for me. Then I got into college and I could make my own schedule, so I picked a lot of afternoon classes, it was awesome.