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Let me preface by saying, I would love to hear counter points and am fully open to the fact that I could be wrong and totally out of touch. I just want to have some dialogue around something that’s been bothering me in the fediverse.

More and more often I keep hearing people refer to “normies”. I think by referring to other people as “normies”, whether you intend to or not, you inadvertently gatekeep and create an exclusive environment rather than an inclusive one in the fediverse.

If I was not that familiar with the fediverse and decided to check it out and the first thing I read was a comment about “normies”, I would quite honestly be very put off. It totally has a negative connotation and doesn’t even encapsulate any one group. I just read a comment about someone grouping a racist uncle and funny friend into the same category of normie because they aren’t up to date on the fediverse or super tech savvy or whatever.

I don’t want to see any Meta bs in the fediverse. I barely want to see half of the stuff from Reddit in the fediverse. I don’t want to see the same echo chamber I do everywhere else.

I do want to see more users and more perspectives and a larger user base though. I want to see kindness and compassion. I want to talk to people about topics they are interested in. I want to have relevant discussions without it dissolving into some commentary on some unrelated hot topic thing.

I think calling people normies creates a more toxic, exclusive place which I personally came here to avoid.

Just my two cents! I know for most people using the term it isn’t meant to be malicious, but I think it comes off that way.

Love to hear all of your thoughts.

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[-] RxBrad@lemmy.world 98 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Or....

"Normie" shows a hint of self awareness that the people on this platform aren't representative of the general public. We're a bunch of tech weirdos.

We're the "abnormies".

[-] grady77@kbin.social 17 points 1 year ago

I guess that’s something I didn’t consider. I kind of feel like that is still creating an us vs them mentality though…

[-] DmMacniel@feddit.de 21 points 1 year ago

But that's pretty much what a group of people is? The people who are inside the group and those that are outside. What is the problem with this?

[-] grady77@kbin.social 6 points 1 year ago

I mean not get too far down that rabbit hole, but I would argue that we are all human beings first and we all belong to many different groups, not just one.

And I think you’re missing my point.

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[-] pjhenry1216@kbin.social 15 points 1 year ago

Pretending there isn't any condescension toward the "normies" when using the term is blatantly exhibiting the exact behavior the OP referenced. It's not how inclusivity works in a community at all. It alienates anyone that isn't already a part of it.

[-] RxBrad@lemmy.world 15 points 1 year ago

Why? Because I don't expect a person who's not entrenched in a specific hobby to understand the ins-and-outs of that hobby?

It's not condescension. It's setting reasonable expectations.

[-] quasi_moto@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

No of course it's reasonable that they wouldn't understand the ins and outs. The op and commenter you're replying to are talking about the connotation of the word, not the fact that a hobbyist understands their hobby.

Take the term Trekkie for example -- people who are into star trek can become Trekkies which symbolizes that they've joined a community. That term can be used to mean that two people both belong to a community (i.e., "we're Trekkies") or it can be used to refer negatively to people in that community by those who aren't in it (i.e., "Trekkies smell bad").

There are (at least) two things happening here that people are picking up on. One is that context matters, and the way that the term normie is often used is not a positive one. I've personally never seen anyone refer to themself proudly as a normie, have you? And the other is that we're referring to normies, a group we ostensibly don't belong to, as a homogeneous blob which is obviously not accurate.

I doubt anyone's feelings are especially hurt if they're called a normie, but that doesn't mean it isn't a dismissive and usually negatively valenced term used to refer to a massive and diverse group of people.

[-] RxBrad@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago

To me, normie just signifies a person outside a given niche hobby.

I'm into having a Plex server in my basement. People not into that are normies in a conversation about having a Plex server. I don't expect them to know how to setup QuickSync hardware encoding in a Plex Docker container.

I don't like anime. To people who like anime, I'm the normie. I think Trunks is just a really cool Mastodon client. I only vaguely know it's also a Dragonball character. If you expect me to know more than this, you're going to be disappointed.

There's no judgment involved.

[-] quasi_moto@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I agree the way you're using it doesn't sound negative. But I don't think that's a representative use of this term. Take a look at the top few entries on urban dictionary, they don't seem very judgement free to me...

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Normie

The point of this post is that even if you don't mean it in the way that urban dictionary describes it, that's how some people will interpret it.

[-] pjhenry1216@kbin.social 5 points 1 year ago

I mean, read even just half the comments on just one page of comments here and you should see that it's extremely common to not use the word in the manner you're stating. We're not talking about that nor is the poster.

[-] sab@kbin.social 13 points 1 year ago

There's a hint of elitism to it though, at least as it's commonly used.

I saw a comment the other day that referred to Instagram users as "people you wouldn't want to associate yourself with". I don't know who these people think normal people are.

[-] s4if@lemmy.my.id 5 points 1 year ago

I think it is more self-deprecation than elitism as (in my image) normies tend to have more friends and healier relationship and hobbies.

[-] Ilikecheese@vlemmy.net 8 points 1 year ago

I always hated the stereotype that Reddit was full of nothing but loser virgins trapped in their mom’s basement who had no friends and no chance of a fulfilling life.

I mean, sure there are a lot of people there (and here) that probably fit most, if not all of that stereotype, but the constant need to point out what losers we all are is problematic in so many ways. Namely that some of us do actually have friends, hobbies, and lives, but still can relate to the overall vibe of being a bit of a weirdo or a loner or whatever, but also it has a tendency to create this barrel of crabs type mental barrier where it just feels like the constant reminders of “if this is all I am, this is all I will ever be” keeps presenting itself. It’s tiring and is the reason why I always kept all the self-insulting subs like me_irl on my block list.

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[-] Chariotwheel@kbin.social 10 points 1 year ago

Tbh, it mostly sounds condescending. Like "they are the normals, as opposed to us, we are the ones that see further than them" a lot of times.

Though I did have seen things that are clearly self-aware, mostly the "NORMIES OUT REEEE"-stuff. But there is definitely both.

[-] brad@toad.work 7 points 1 year ago

This is my thought. The OP leads me to believe that being "normal" is considered bad

[-] Kolanaki@yiffit.net 5 points 1 year ago

Many of us are also not nuerotypical. Another word for typical is normal.

[-] Ilikecheese@vlemmy.net 5 points 1 year ago

Many is not all. And by creating an us vs them mentality where I’m “us” for the most part, but not for the whole part, there’s situations where the need to choose is being presented. It’s gatekeeping for the sake of gatekeeping, and really isn’t part of a healthy community of people.

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[-] fubo@lemmy.world 40 points 1 year ago

A slur always tells you more about the person who uses it than about the person they're referring to.

[-] 001100010010@lemmy.dbzer0.com 10 points 1 year ago

How about "I hate Terfs"? What does that make me?

[-] nyar@lemmy.world 16 points 1 year ago

TERF isn't a slur, it's an accurate descriptor.

Terfs are trans exclusionary. Terfs are on the borders of feminist thought, making them radical (and not in the cool way).

They only want it to be a slur so they aren't accurately described as what they are.

[-] nuzzlerat@lemmy.world 12 points 1 year ago

Actually I think it is quite a stretch to call them feminists in any way. 99% of the time they ally with the far right and many of their leaders advocate against things like contraception and healthcare for women

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[-] Kinglink@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago

Yeah but "Radical"... TERFS ain't radical, nor bodacious nor totally tubular dude!

Accept everyone, that's the TMNT way!

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[-] 70ms@lemmy.sdf.org 8 points 1 year ago

It makes you an awesome ally. 👍

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[-] hutchmcnugget@lemmy.world 35 points 1 year ago

I have seen the word normie used in almost exclusively sarcastic or tongue in cheek contexts.

[-] Ilikecheese@vlemmy.net 7 points 1 year ago

The internet has a way of taking things that are used sarcastically and removing every bit of irony. The Flat Earth Society, PCMR, and The Donald subreddit all started out as making fun of the people that are now 100% unironically part of very thriving (and toxic to differing levels) communities.

I think that will almost certainly happen to the word normie, if it hasn’t already.

[-] JoeCoT@kbin.social 6 points 1 year ago

I've only really seen it in two contexts. Mainly "don't scare the normies", which was largely the advice given to my larp communities to not freak out people in real life with their hobby stuff, and probably also applies to subcultures like furries and such. And secondarily as self-deprecating. I'm a Facebook meme group "Normie Has-Beens" tied to the page "Stale Memes for Normie Has-Beens", and it's certainly not people who consider themselves normal.

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[-] sangle_of_flame@lemmy.world 24 points 1 year ago

nah, you're right

the term always gives me images of channer culture; like it reminds me when the internet as a whole thought that 4chan and its ilk were cool and elite for being shitty for "lulz"

it needs to be retired

[-] finthechat@kbin.social 7 points 1 year ago

That's where it came from. Back in the day when everyone on 4chan was some type of "fag":

-Newfag - new users
-Oldfag - old users
-Normalfag - normally-adjusted human being not on teh interwebz, later became shortened to "normie"

[-] TORFdot0@lemmy.world 6 points 1 year ago

Doesn’t “normie” come from /b/? I don’t think I saw it used anywhere else until shitposting subs like /r/dankmemes started calling who don’t use memes correctly normies

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[-] Lunyan@kbin.social 4 points 1 year ago

Yeah agreed. It was kinda funny 10 years ago, but I thought we would've grown past it by now. Feels like needless gatekeeping

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[-] problematicconsumer@lemmy.world 16 points 1 year ago

Like everything else context matters

[-] WhoRoger@lemmy.world 14 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I just see the term to mean the opposite of specialist, or someone who is passionate about the topic.

In internet terms, it generally means not a geek.

It's a good distinction, because for geeks, internet is something inherently interesting on a technological and philosophical level. For, well, normies, it's just an appliance they don't need to know much about.

Similarly if you go to a car show but don't really know shit about cars other than they have 4 wheels, you're a normie in that environment. Your requirements on what a car should be like, are fundamentally different from someone who likes to tweak and tinker.

I wish the term could just mean that without any negative connotations, because I don't see anything wrong with that distinction.

Ed/add: Nobody can know everything about every topic, so everyone is a normie in some category. Usually without realising it. So that's just it. Not necessarily an insult, and doesn't even make much sense as one, I think.

[-] zeppo@lemmy.world 13 points 1 year ago

To me it means “not a computer dork”. I always interpreted it as somewhat self-deprecating.

[-] 13esq@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago

Yh, it's meant to be ironic.

Fucking normies, REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!

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[-] BURN@lemmy.world 13 points 1 year ago

I think lots of people who use “normie” unironically are creating an us vs them mentality. It’s not malicious, it’s often how they see the world. People who are “abnormal” are often othered in the world and pushed away. This is a way for others to take back being the “out” group in a little way that makes you feel less out of place.

I’m guilty of it in other facets of my life.

[-] 13esq@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago

I've never seen it used unironically, but maybe I'm in different communities.

[-] BaldManGoomba@lemmy.world 11 points 1 year ago

Normies just means people who aren't in the in group and to me means we are the weird ones, exclusive group or have uncommon interests or knowledge.

It is important to be self aware that in the context of the fediverse and meme culture things you are use to are weird, different, and sometimes confusing. Perfect example has been the beans and the 3 day poop thing. Normal people don't get and will think it is weird if they know nothing about the trend. Another example is I am a rock climber if I reference a jug or a sloper it means nothing to normies or people unaware of the lingo. So a jug joke isn't something other people get

[-] shy_bibliophile@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago

I think that context is really important. I've mostly seen this term used by neurodivergent people when expressing frustration with not being understood by the general populace. Also, these conversations were usually in spaces created by and for neurodivergent people, so the use of normie to indicate everyone else makes sense to me. In that context, it always comes across as kind of self-deprecating to me, an acknowledgement that the person speaking isn't considered normal because of their condition.

Based on the context you've described, I'm not surprised you don't like the term. If that was were I first encountered it I wouldn't like it either.

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[-] Elkaki123@vlemmy.net 8 points 1 year ago

I'm with you on this one, in a vacuum I don't really have a problem with the term "normie" but here it is completely being used as gatekeeping.

This whole meta controversy has really caused some brain rot, a lot of people talk about this place as if it's better because it "gatekeeps". They say they enjoy this place because it is niche and doesn't have the "below room temperature IQ posters" (actual quote I saw)

I don't like this attitude, I really don't like it. It is way to common on the internet, especially for hobby communities to have this attitude.

[-] trambe@lemmy.world 8 points 1 year ago

Exactly, pushing people away is not how you grow a platform

Like, what happened to just downvoting low effort or low “quality” posts? Do we have to pass IQ tests to allow users on Lemmy now?

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[-] whatsarefoogee@lemmy.world 6 points 1 year ago

I disagree entirely.

Gatekeeping has a negative connotation to it, and it can be used negatively. But gatekeeping is also necessary if you want to maintain a good community.

The increase of ease of use of social media and internet at large, and making it available to the very general public is what caused social media to become a toxic waste dump of misinformation, low effort content and lack of critical thought.

The difference of quality of reddit between 10 years ago and today is absolutely staggering. Reddit is practically unusable outside of small communities.

The relative difficulty of using the internet acted as a natural gatekeeping mechanism to keep your racist uncle Bob and your antivax aunt Karen away. Now they can join by clicking a few buttons on their phone.

Since that no longer works, the communities need to take gatekeeping into their own hands. Otherwise, it can be overrun by people people who are just stupid, to be frank.

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[-] GregorGizeh@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago

I really dislike that term, it makes me cringe to be considered part of a group that uses it unironically. That’s 4chan speech, let’s keep it in that cesspool.

[-] magic_lobster_party@kbin.social 7 points 1 year ago

I’ve always assumed that people who use “normie” in their language are probably teenagers with superiority complex.

[-] genoxidedev1@kbin.social 6 points 1 year ago

"Normie" is one of the few words that I cringe over everytime I read it. I consider myself to be in, or adjacent to, the group of people that would use that word, since I am tech affinitive and that group is usually the one that uses it. But I cringe everytime I see it used unironically because I don't want non-tech affinitive (or lesser affinitive) people to lump every person that has something to do with IT or similar into the group of people they don't want nothing to do with because they're always condescending towards them.

It's literally like as if you're saying "Did you know that I have an IQ of 150?".

You're not gatekeeping anyone out of your life by using that word, you're gatekeeping yourself out of every "normal" persons life by using that word.

[-] grady77@kbin.social 5 points 1 year ago

This makes a lot of sense! And I would argue if you just met me you would 1000% put me in the normie category. Buuut if you got to know me you would come to find out I’m a goofy uber nerd who works with a bunch of software engineers and loves technology and gaming and reading scientific journals on particle physics.

I quite frankly don’t want to be in either group because the entire concept of normie vs not normie is kind of silly in my opinion.

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[-] blightbow@kbin.social 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

The cycle of social tech becoming mainstream and conversational norms being dragged down to a least common denominator predates modern social media. The earliest example I can think of is Usenet (newsgroups):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_September

During the 1980s and early 1990s, Usenet and the Internet were generally the domain of dedicated computer professionals and hobbyists; new users joined slowly, in small numbers, and observed and learned the social conventions of online interaction without having much of an impact on the experienced users. The only exception to this was September of every year, when large numbers of first-year college students gained access to the Internet and Usenet through their universities. These large groups of new users who had not yet learned online etiquette created a nuisance for the experienced users, who came to dread September every year. Once ISPs like AOL made Internet access widely available for home users, a continuous influx of new users began, which continued through to 2015 according to Jason Koebler, making it feel like it is always "September" to the more experienced users.

It's the same cycle. Social tech starts off being used by a smaller number of technically inclined people. Communities are smaller and normalized civility is more commonplace. Peer pressure holds people to those norms. Once a social tech balloons from mainstream interest, the norms (or zeitgeist if you prefer) shift toward the incoming population because they outnumber the early population and exert more peer pressure. The new norms become a compromise between the norms of the incoming mob and what the community moderators are willing/able to enforce.

It's tempting to put a label on the incoming demographic and use it in a derogatory way, but removing the label from the equation doesn't change the source of unhappiness; the memory of what once was and the knowledge that it can't last when cultural dilution sets in.

(no, I'm not providing any solutions to the problem, this is just rambling that might provide more insightful people with a starting point)

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this post was submitted on 06 Jul 2023
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