Let me preface by saying, I would love to hear counter points and am fully open to the fact that I could be wrong and totally out of touch. I just want to have some dialogue around something that’s been bothering me in the fediverse.
More and more often I keep hearing people refer to “normies”. I think by referring to other people as “normies”, whether you intend to or not, you inadvertently gatekeep and create an exclusive environment rather than an inclusive one in the fediverse.
If I was not that familiar with the fediverse and decided to check it out and the first thing I read was a comment about “normies”, I would quite honestly be very put off. It totally has a negative connotation and doesn’t even encapsulate any one group. I just read a comment about someone grouping a racist uncle and funny friend into the same category of normie because they aren’t up to date on the fediverse or super tech savvy or whatever.
I don’t want to see any Meta bs in the fediverse. I barely want to see half of the stuff from Reddit in the fediverse. I don’t want to see the same echo chamber I do everywhere else.
I do want to see more users and more perspectives and a larger user base though. I want to see kindness and compassion. I want to talk to people about topics they are interested in. I want to have relevant discussions without it dissolving into some commentary on some unrelated hot topic thing.
I think calling people normies creates a more toxic, exclusive place which I personally came here to avoid.
Just my two cents! I know for most people using the term it isn’t meant to be malicious, but I think it comes off that way.
Love to hear all of your thoughts.
Or....
"Normie" shows a hint of self awareness that the people on this platform aren't representative of the general public. We're a bunch of tech weirdos.
We're the "abnormies".
I guess that’s something I didn’t consider. I kind of feel like that is still creating an us vs them mentality though…
But that's pretty much what a group of people is? The people who are inside the group and those that are outside. What is the problem with this?
I mean not get too far down that rabbit hole, but I would argue that we are all human beings first and we all belong to many different groups, not just one.
And I think you’re missing my point.
of course can groups overlap, and we are all humans but that doesn't mean that group dynamics are a bad thing?
These aren't actual group dynamics. In any way. Exclusion and "us vs them" is not a positive group dynamic. Do not promote it.
So you're saying there are people who DO use "normies" and people that DON'T use "normies". These are not two groups of people. Shit, I just joined this thread, so that makes ME one of YOU, and there's OTHERS that aren't here. Are WE the elitists? Or are THEY the "normies"? YOU said there's no there's no US or THEM, so EVERYONE is talking in this thread. ANYONE not in this thread must not exist because I know I exist, so YOU thread posters must exist, but wait, that makes ME an US and YOU a THEM.
(I'm not trying to be snarky, but this argument is exactly as nonsensical.)
Buddy, are you ok? You can define "groups" by literally anything. The existence of a delineation is not "group dynamics." Group dynamics is not the existence of a categorizational model. Group dynamics is the interaction between two groups. And the phrase used was "us vs them" and I will point out that "vs" has a very specific meaning.
What the fuck are you on about? You sound like someone on crack for their first time. I never said there was no us or them. I said there's no reason to have us vs them. I'm not sure what part of reading comprehension you failed at, but you need to improve it.
My point is that this argument makes as much sense as what I wrote, so it's encouraging the you think it's ridiculous.
"Versus" is a valueless delineation separating two subjects. There are two groups: The people of the Fediverse and the people not in the Fediverse. Neither one is good or bad, and in fact, many are a part of BOTH. That self awareness cancels any perceived negativity. We're all probably some level of "normie," and I've never heard someone use that word without immediate laughter by all parties. Sure, maybe in the early 00s by grade school punks, but I don't think anyone does or should care.
The point you're actually making, without articulating it well, is the lack of terminology for federated groups. No one wants to say, "I'm a member of a select federated Lemmy and Kbin instances within the larger Fediverse." You want an affirmative set of terms, so that delineation can be made; you want to say, "The X have this, and the not(X) have that." From there you can get to value judgements, based on the expression of X, and I'll recognize your concerns. The ridiculousness of those terms not existing makes it VERY hard to claim intentional negativity/harm because it simultaneously draws attention that group X in this case doesn't have their shit together enough to come up with a nickname or shorthand.
"You're better than us? What are you?"
"Well, you see, I'm a part of a federated network of...."
(Looks up - everyone left)
So, until someone comes up with some non-super-cringe terms for this wonderful mess, the discussion is a waste of everyone's time. And until then, I suggest taking it on a case by case basis. If someone is offended, tell them that's not intended because we don't have OUR shit together, ask them what they prefer, and use that term around them.
This was a bunch of nonsense. It was entirely tangental and didn't actually mean anything. You literally mention two groups that are mutually exclusive by definition and say some folks are part of both. Moreover, you made your own definition for what "versus" means and ignored what actually defines a group that isn't an identity. There's no identity in a group defined like you're talking about.
You're actually making even less sense than before. It's like the more words you use, the less sense you make. You should try being succinct and see if that helps you communicate better.
This is absolutely not how you approaching communities. They literally said it creates an Us vs them mentality and you claim that as a positive? Groups are not about us vs them. At all. Nor is it how you build communities. That's how you create echo chambers and cliques and lead to your own downfall as a community.
The problem is that generalization exists.
Every person that ever met or talked to a person that is part of the non-"normie" group does not want to associate with other people that might be in the same group. I've experienced it myself often enough even though I don't consider myself far gone like the people that talk to every "normie" in a condescending way, but they don't know it.
I genuinely try to hide the fact that I have fun tinkering with my PC or programming because of that. Because I do not want people that are not tech affinitive to think 'I'm probably just a stuck-up asshole'.
You just defined stereotyping and prejudice.
No no no, it's stereotyping and prejudice when OTHER people do it to US. WE should tell THEM that THEY are US, and by saying this to OURSELVES we have said it to THEM, so that WE know that THEY know, but now THEY are a THEM again.
YOU don't get it. WE get it. YOU should all be like US where there is no YOU and US, there is only the WE that is YOU and US, but thereis no YOU and US, there is only the WE that is YOU and US, but thereis no YOU and US, there is only the WE that is YOU and US, but thereis no YOU and US, there is only the WE that is YOU and US.
Simple. See? You don't? But, YOU must because there is no...
What? I'm assuming you are using your same failed understanding of another of my comments here. If you aren't going to actually point out what you think is wrong, but instead try to illustrate it with nonsensical statements, I can't honestly pinpoint where communication failed. Just try using basic logic next time if you feel so inclined to elucidate whatever point you're trying to make.
Replied to above.
Definitely elements of this resonate for me, but that’s why I think it’s just silly. They are a needless way of creating division where there doesn’t need to be.
That's your loss, man. Personally, I don't feel the need to associate with people who are condescending towards my hobbies.
The problem isn't that that exists, it's when people decide that not being in the group is bad, and not just a casual state of being.
No reasonable person is implying that.
No reasonable person is implying that having different groups of people is a bad thing, either, and yet that's what DmMacniel was inferring others were saying.
I didn't imply that though? I simply stated that there is an inside of a group and an outside of a group. Also people can belong to several groups that may or may not overlap.
It's neither good nor bad up until people think it's bad or good to be part of one specific group.
You missed to very key letters here. Here's the original statement with the two key letters highlighted:
Nobody that I've seen here has said that there is no "in" or "out" vis a vis the group. The objection is over those two key letters.
Pretending there isn't any condescension toward the "normies" when using the term is blatantly exhibiting the exact behavior the OP referenced. It's not how inclusivity works in a community at all. It alienates anyone that isn't already a part of it.
Why? Because I don't expect a person who's not entrenched in a specific hobby to understand the ins-and-outs of that hobby?
It's not condescension. It's setting reasonable expectations.
No of course it's reasonable that they wouldn't understand the ins and outs. The op and commenter you're replying to are talking about the connotation of the word, not the fact that a hobbyist understands their hobby.
Take the term Trekkie for example -- people who are into star trek can become Trekkies which symbolizes that they've joined a community. That term can be used to mean that two people both belong to a community (i.e., "we're Trekkies") or it can be used to refer negatively to people in that community by those who aren't in it (i.e., "Trekkies smell bad").
There are (at least) two things happening here that people are picking up on. One is that context matters, and the way that the term normie is often used is not a positive one. I've personally never seen anyone refer to themself proudly as a normie, have you? And the other is that we're referring to normies, a group we ostensibly don't belong to, as a homogeneous blob which is obviously not accurate.
I doubt anyone's feelings are especially hurt if they're called a normie, but that doesn't mean it isn't a dismissive and usually negatively valenced term used to refer to a massive and diverse group of people.
To me, normie just signifies a person outside a given niche hobby.
I'm into having a Plex server in my basement. People not into that are normies in a conversation about having a Plex server. I don't expect them to know how to setup QuickSync hardware encoding in a Plex Docker container.
I don't like anime. To people who like anime, I'm the normie. I think Trunks is just a really cool Mastodon client. I only vaguely know it's also a Dragonball character. If you expect me to know more than this, you're going to be disappointed.
There's no judgment involved.
I agree the way you're using it doesn't sound negative. But I don't think that's a representative use of this term. Take a look at the top few entries on urban dictionary, they don't seem very judgement free to me...
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Normie
The point of this post is that even if you don't mean it in the way that urban dictionary describes it, that's how some people will interpret it.
I mean, read even just half the comments on just one page of comments here and you should see that it's extremely common to not use the word in the manner you're stating. We're not talking about that nor is the poster.
There's a hint of elitism to it though, at least as it's commonly used.
I saw a comment the other day that referred to Instagram users as "people you wouldn't want to associate yourself with". I don't know who these people think normal people are.
I think it is more self-deprecation than elitism as (in my image) normies tend to have more friends and healier relationship and hobbies.
I always hated the stereotype that Reddit was full of nothing but loser virgins trapped in their mom’s basement who had no friends and no chance of a fulfilling life.
I mean, sure there are a lot of people there (and here) that probably fit most, if not all of that stereotype, but the constant need to point out what losers we all are is problematic in so many ways. Namely that some of us do actually have friends, hobbies, and lives, but still can relate to the overall vibe of being a bit of a weirdo or a loner or whatever, but also it has a tendency to create this barrel of crabs type mental barrier where it just feels like the constant reminders of “if this is all I am, this is all I will ever be” keeps presenting itself. It’s tiring and is the reason why I always kept all the self-insulting subs like me_irl on my block list.
They probably don't want to associate with "normal" people because they revel in their "weird" status.
Which, honestly, is kind of understandable and relatable. People are often mocked and reviled for sticking out, for being different. It makes a sad sort of sense that they'd lash out at those that represent that "normalness" that they're told they'll never achieve.
I certainly don't think it's healthy in the long term, but I can at least fathom the logic that got them there.
Tbh, it mostly sounds condescending. Like "they are the normals, as opposed to us, we are the ones that see further than them" a lot of times.
Though I did have seen things that are clearly self-aware, mostly the "NORMIES OUT REEEE"-stuff. But there is definitely both.
This is my thought. The OP leads me to believe that being "normal" is considered bad
Many of us are also not nuerotypical. Another word for typical is normal.
Many is not all. And by creating an us vs them mentality where I’m “us” for the most part, but not for the whole part, there’s situations where the need to choose is being presented. It’s gatekeeping for the sake of gatekeeping, and really isn’t part of a healthy community of people.
My perception inn the early days of reddit was that the majority of users were also tech weirdos. So there's that...
I am a Fallout Ghoul