Ask Lemmy

Not from the US but when I see my country's flag I don't really feel anything. In theory I've got two flags, both the Scottish one and the Union Jack but they both elicit the same lack of reaction. Countries are just social and geographical facts. Getting angry or elated at the sight of a flag is a bit like having an emotional reaction to the moon; I suppose it's possible in some circumstances but most of the time it's just there and you shrug.

No. I saw a lady driving with two USA flags on the sides of her car yesterday. I assume this is her alternative to having a Trump sticker, since that shit would likely engender a negative response in the Bay Area (specifically Oakland / Berkeley). She just looked dumb as fuck. I was embarrassed for her.

Don't be ashamed to be ashamed of your country. If you're also a USA citizen, we have a lot to be ashamed about. But also don't give up. Fight back. Don't let them slow-roll to victory by causing us to go numb.

Aw, you're turning English.

The St George Cross flag basically gets trotted out for football and racism. That's it.

If I see one on somebody's house and it's not Euros or World Cup season, then I automatically assume they're seething because they heard somebody have a phone conversation in a foreign language on the bus three weeks ago and that they should bring back smoking in pubs.

I know exactly what you're talking about. I'm from Russia.

I haven't been proud to be an American in a long time. We were looking for a house, now we're debating if leaving is safer.

This country is doomed, and everyone who voted Trump deserves to burn in the fires they helped create. Fuck em, I have literally no sympathy left.

I have always had that feeling living in a fascist third world country (Turkey) welcome to the club

I felt this way a few years ago when we had the idiot convoy ride across Canada. The flag became a symbol for racist, anti-vax, just general assholes.

I never was a huge fan of flying the flag anyway, because to me it represents colonialism, but I never used to mind it as much. Now when I see it out of place, I just assume bad, unless it's one of our more cheerful variations like the indigenous design or the heart one that was used to show support for medical workers.

I see other people getting down voted for similar sentiments, but visiting the US always made me feel uncomfortable to see ALL the flags. I honestly haven't been to another country that takes that much pride in their flag. Until the convoy, I don't think I even ever saw anyone flying Canadian flag in their yard except maybe for Canada Day.

Idk, what I'm saying is, I feel for you, I understand it's a symbol of your national identity, but also, maybe take more pride in what actual good Americans do rather than in just some made up symbolism of what they should be.

I kinda know what you mean... I used to not think anything weird about seeing an American flag, sometimes it even made me feel patriotic. Now when I see a car with an American flag sticker I assume the person driving probably has a loaded gun and is desperate to get into an argument about something

Do USian school children still talk to that bit of fabric every morning - or is that a myth? From an outsider’s perspective I always put the US just below, uh, post-Weimar republic Germany in the excessive flag club chart placings. Always seemed excessively jingoistic.

Best of luck with your country…

The greatest lie the Right ever told that the Left bought hook line and sinker was that they were the ones who represented America.

The thing is, while the US has it's horrible history and present, the people who fought for the ideals we're supposed to have are also just as much American as any conservative asshole. MLK Jr was American. Frederick Douglass was American. John Brown was American. Mister Rogers was American. Abolitionists. Suffragists. Union fighters. People fighting for fixing the problems, righting the wrongs, holding our country accountable for it's own ideals, are just as much a part of that flag.

The assholes laid claim to that flag and the people who are aware of the problems, who have legitimate concerns with the bullshit this country has done and continues to do, accidentally let them.

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel" - I think Samuel Johnson's original meaning, of complaining about "false" patriots, strongly applies to your distaste for the flag. The idiots we see proudly waving their country flags (in Brazil, that'd be the bozonaristas) are using them as a cover for their prejudices and stupidity. They wouldn't be able to name a single thing they like about the country they love.

I don’t think you’re wrong at all.

Personally, I don’t hate the flag because for me it represents ideals that should be for everyone and that I should be fighting oppression of those against the dream. I have a very Captain America-esque view.

What I cringe and have disgust with are the citizens that want to tear down these just ideals or misrepresent and distort what we should be.

Don't forget who took that from you.

The American flag has become more a symbol of nationalism to me than a symbol of patriotism. It represents everything I hate about my country, and none of the things I love.

The country where I was born and raised is 900 years old. This implies a lit of history, both good and bad.

The country was literally started because our first king decided he wasn't going to allow his mother and her lover to steal his father's lands. After that, the Pope demanded our country to pay the church a huge sum in order to be recognized, the king said "we'll eventually come to that" and never payed. We were taken over by our neighbouring country at some point because of blood ties and after 75 years we just said "enough is enough, these guys are getting housted". We fought Napoleon. We had a bloody civil war. Somewhere inbetween all of this we decided "Let's build a lot of boats and see where we can go." because the price of spices was to damn high. And more recently we got out of bed for a morning, threw down a fascist dictatorship, and went back to our quiet life. Nobody cares or notices us but yet we have one of the most powerful passports in the world.

But why all of this boasting?

It's cool to have all this history and background. But I don't owe my country nothing. I owe who I am to my family and friends and I owe to the future generations to remember where we come from and teach them the same I learned by myself: we are our country. We decide what we stand for and we represent the values we want to spread.

The government of your land may be corrupt today but it does not have or needs to represent you. And by refusing that, you put up your own resistance. No matter how small, that is resistance. And if you feel your flag needs to be reclaimed, put it upside down.

Stay strong, OP.

I hate even dressing up on July 4th for fear of looking like a capitol raiding moron. It didn't use to be like this, and frankly, it's depressing as fuck. I used to be very proud of my nation, and the progress we'd made in my short lifespan. We legalized gay marriage, elected a black president, tried to get healthcare for all (didn't work and we all know why), but I genuinely felt optimistic about our nation and the future. 4 years of Trump did a number on my sense of patriotism, and were only 1 months in to Trump 2.0 and he's dealt a knockout blow to it. I genuinely cringe seeing any amount of national pride now.

Every time I see flags out in public, it just reminds me of authority.

I don't like authority, from schools administrators to employers, or even parents, fuck them all, wannabe fascists.

Flags, school logos, corporate logos, or the concept of the "family name" its all the same. (I'd change the family name if it doesn't cause so much paperwork trouble)

Maybe this flag as a replacement?

No, you're right to feel that way. While most Americans aren't terrible people, enough of us are that we allowed fascism to take over and we will have to carry that shame with us for the rest of our lives. It Happened Here.

You tell me, man. Over here in Brazil, seeing a national flag outside the context of "it's world cup match day" generally signals whoever is flying it is a fascist twat.

youre not alone. the american flag makes me sick. overt patriotism has been coopted by magats, and its hard to see it any other way.

if someone feels the need to wave the american flag, i feel the need to be suspicious of your lack of empathy and possible fascist undertones. sorry.

However you feel is not "wrong", and in this case pretty understandable.

Here in Australia I don't have a problem with the flag itself, but there seems to be a strong correlation with people putting flags on their cars and being racist assholes.

Patriotism leads to nationalism, xenophobia, and racism. Not always, of course, but often enough to make it a horrible thing. Our communities are only as good as we make them, and any notion that presupposes greatness is antithetical to continued improvement.

In elementary school, I was all about patriotism. The flag was cool. we (country) were the bad-ass owners of our own fate and we're cool. We are the melting pot, by the people for the people.

Up through Desert Shield, I was still like yay, America.

W lost his luster, I got old enough to feel the embarrassment of broccoli and NUCULER. I wasn't rah rah anymore, but those that are, live and let live right?

Dixie flag wavers were racists, that was easy, but the 1776 flag, will maybe they're historians.

I was mostly over our the right's shit by Clinton. But then Clinton had some of his own disturbing shit.

When Trump hit the first time, I saw, 30-40% of the population throwing flags up and starting fascist fights. Complete and Immediate disillusion.

At his point, someone flying the US flag is a BIG red flag. The Dixie flag is stupid racists, The 1776 flag is libertarians who fall into camps between uninformed and uninformed racists pop it up there with the don't tread on me bullshit.

At this point, if you're not retired military from a better time, there's very little you can do to show me you can fly an American flag and not be a horrible person.

I may have a chance to travel to Europe for the first time in my life, and I'm worried that the Ugly American stereotype will be factored in to my reception. Probably won't go until things calm down here/the nukes fly.

Totally healthy! I started that when my friends died in Iraq or came back without limbs and sustaining life long trauma. But newbies always welcome 😁

Nope, same thing happened to me in Canada after the clown convoy. Canada Day was never the same nor celebrated since

this is what free speech is all about, you should never feel wrong for feeling gross about how your country is fucking up

As a German, I feel you.

Where I live it's hard to see someone flying an American flag and not immediately assume they're a bigot.

Magats did to the American flag what they think gay people did to the rainbow.

You're in good company. Germans have a similar relationship with their flag.

Here's an alternative take to upset the boring consensus here.

Patriotic pride (not necessarily nationalism) is the inevitable product of social cohesion. A society which is cohesive is one where people look at strangers and see them as members of their tribe - essentially, as extended family. It's a society where citizens are therefore willing to pay high taxes to fund those strangers' welfare benefits, for example. No welfare state has ever arisen in a country without this essential quality. Almost by definition, social cohesion is closely correlated with patriotism. In the world's most redistributive countries - I'm talking about Scandinavia, of course - you will see more national flags than you might think given their "leftist" reputation. In Sweden, ordinary houses sometime have flagpoles in the garden, I've seen them. None of this is coincidental.

Patriotism can be a dangerous slippery slope, yes. But it's also what empowers strong states and collective action. Nobody wants a patriotism-free world more than the billionaires that everyone hates here. Be careful what you wish for.

It's a good step to consider patriotic ideology as prelude to fascism and tribalism. Welcome in the world of great oportunities, free from borders and labels put with force in your mind. Welcome there, human!