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Twilight | ContraPoints
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this post was submitted on 02 Mar 2024
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chapotraphouse
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Why do people dislike contra so much outside of her being a lib?
Cause she also scolds those to her left for not being libs
She presented as father left than she actually was. She is comfortably a soc dem now.
Father Left is what we will replace Father Christmas with after we win the war on Christmas
I dunno if Natalie ever "presented" as anything more than she is. I think she was just one of a small group of leftish youtubers who got big at a time when the platform seemed to be completely overrun by alt-right dorks and a part of her audience projected revolutionary leftism onto her that wasn't there.
a clue is revealed in the comments of this very post
Is there a video or tweet she did that sparked it?
She had some problematic elder queers on her videos. When asked to denounce problematic things they has said she did not. she said it is just elder queer culture to be problematic and doubbled down. Problematic but also maybe correct.
Idk she is kind of right. Older people are going to have disconnects with younger people. In 30 years we will be the problematic elders. Unless someone's actively malicious it probably isn't worth it to fight or debate or whatever. And alienating the elders isn't going to make them change their minds. We have to work with people who have some problematic opinions otherwise we can do nothing.
his stuff is actively malicious, though. he's working to restore stronger gatekeeping between trans people and medical care, using his platform to do that. giving him access to your platform without looking up who he is isn't a minor foux pas - it's dangerous. this kind of minimization is why people are upset with her. it's like inviting blaire white onto your show, not some doddering old man. these people actively work with terfs and far right groups as "the good trans".
I'm not that familiar with Buck, so I'll defer to you. If that's the case that sucks. But I can also understand her perspective. There needs to be a way to bridge the generational divides so that we're not splitting ourselves off every 20 years.
Like, older trans people probably had to fight extremely hard to get medical care, and they were only legitimized once they did receive it. In that situation, I can understand why they might cling to that for validation. I can understand why younger trans people who don't have the same upbringing might provoke a negative reaction. If you fought hard to get something and then people said it doesn't matter and it's wrong to say it matters, it's understandable to be put off by that.
Now I tend to agree with the younger people, because I'm younger. But there's got to be ways to reach a common ground. I could be very wrong, but I think there's a lot of people who hold transmedicalist views because that's what they know. It's one thing to know something logically and another thing to connect to it emotionally.
In 30 years we're all going to be the problematic boomers, and I don't want to be treated the way some of them are by the (understandably frustrated) younger generation. People get really vitriolic online, and while yeah, online isn't real, I'm sure it sucks. "The left was mean to me so I became a TERF" is a stupid excuse people make, but there probably are a lot of people who feel pushed out by the all-or-nothing approach some people take.
I could be way off, I don't know the details of any of this. It's general pontificating, maybe.
it's not a generational divide. there's plenty of young transmedicalists. it's a conservative position that posits that if we cut out all the "weird" trans people, we can gain the acceptance of the cissies because good "optics" or whatever (I've actually had this conversation in a phone call with a staunch transmedicalist that's very much a zoomer).
the reality is that queer assimilationists endanger all of us. their position forces them into alliance with far-right groups (see my earlier comments about TERFs and fascists).
this disagreement has nothing to do with a generational divide. I love elder trans people and learning about how they survived prior to the 2011 change to the laws that enabled informed consent. their experiences are vital. what I will not tolerate are people who deny the existence of my dearest NB friends, on a fool's errand to gain acceptance from a hostile cis society.
For this crowd the real turning point against her was when she dialled up the anticommunism with caricatures and strawmen while trying to shame people into voting for democrats. People were semi supportive before that.
Don’t forget that she made fun of fellow trans people she thought were weird at the same time!
because leftists are attached to their funny little youtube people when they could get outside
She said ignorant things about veganism
and? A youtuber is never going to move the needle on veganism.
I find that hegemonic/rancid takes about veganism are a pretty good flag for other bad politics. It's South Park behavior. Especially because shitting on tofu like contra did denigrates East Asian cultures as collateral damage
Mocking vegans didn't originate with South Park, it originated with annoying vegans. And lots of people dislike tofu because it's hard to prepare correctly or because it's an odd texture or something. Not being a vegan doesn't make you a bad person, and it's reaching to imply making fun of tofu is racist.
no they don't because no it isn't? it's frankly simple compared to handling meat. if you wanna make the argument that they don't like it because they're ignorant that's one thing, but claiming "tofu is hard" is kind of embarrassing unless you've literally never been taught even the basics of cooking.
I wasn't giving my opinion, just some I've heard.
fair enough, that's my bad then. sorry for the hostility.
No it's okay, I think I'm very clumsy at articulating my thoughts. I give people the wrong impression. I also have a bad tendency to play devil's advocate.
And I have to address your concrete objections:
It's fine to have a personal preference. If you try and extend these globally and say that your culture is right about how tofu tastes and those people are either wrong or lying, yeah that's racist. That's why she deleted
I love tofu, but I also know many people who don't. I'm not saying it's bad, I'm saying many people are unfamiliar with it here. This is a bit much
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Do-gooder_derogation
It originated with people being unable to refute vegans
You could also interpret that proposed phenomenon to say that self-righteousness is annoying.
I don't understand how someone can make it onto a niche communist forum without having the life experience to confirm that people will absolutely attack you for wanting things to be better
Marxist political organizing depends on showing people how we can concretely improve our lives and how socialism serves our collective interests. We need a mass movement in order to be effective, so we bring in as many people as possible.
Vegan political organizing seems to rely on tactics that only work on a small percentage of the population and alienate everyone else. Maybe vegans should try a method that isn't sanctimoniousness and inventing words like "bloodmouth"
Can you even hear yourself? You're so full of shit it's dribbling out of your bloody mouth and you're wholly oblivious to it. Get the fuck out of here with your liberal anti-vegan nonsense and go worship your cringe lib idol Contrapoints elsewhere.
Again, I'm vegan and have no particular interest in contra. But thanks.
You're basically just telling me how resentful and self-oblivious you are. Lots of ineffectual (self-proclaimed) Marxist activists can be characterized the same way, meanwhile vegans have done plenty of good agitation, probably the most visible being the documentaries on industrial slaughterhouses they've produced.
Saying that you personally do not like tofu is fine. Saying that tofu is impossible to prepare in a way that's good is racist.
You have misread me. It's South Park behavior. This type of worldview shits on people for caring; people who care are always the ones trying to change things; thus these attacks always attempt to preserve the current state of things. In other words, they are conservative. South Park didn't literally invent antiveganism, that would be so stupid that I think you should take a step back and remember that you're talking to a person and not a cartoon character.
You have misread me. I did not say that not being vegan makes you a "bad person", whatever that means. Going out of your way to defend the status quo of carnism usually means you have bad politics. Principled leftists have the good sense to stay quiet about it. Contra's particular flavor is to cede that veganism is ethically correct, to prevent both animal suffering and environmental destruction, but to claim that giving up meat is so impossibly difficult that anyone who's vegan must not have liked the taste very much to begin with. That's an obviously silly argument, and I hope she grows some spine and acts according to her stated values, but it doesn't excuse her thoughtless blabs denigrating East Asian cultures.
You're the one who brought up South Park. Cartoons are just not a big factor in how I interpret the world.
Tofu is one food eaten in East Asia. You can dislike one food without thinking an entire culture is incapable of preparing good food. You can say you hate rice and rice sucks without denigrating China. Maybe she loves hotpot. It's really not worth the emotional investment what a youtuber thinks about food.
There's plenty of people in indigenous and third world leftist movements who would actively defend eating meat. Personally I don't eat meat, but I don't think it's a good idea to call someone a jackass or a bad leftist or whatever over it. I can articulate my objections without berating a stranger.
It definitely does though
Alright so every historical member of the communist movement is a bad person...
Well, no one is perfect. A bit hard to morally justify killing animals for no real reason though
So it's "no one is perfect" when it's someone you like, but "you're a bad person" when it's someone you dislike.
The reason is to eat them. Following that logic, every indigenous culture that eats meat is constantly doing something morally unjustifiable.
Comparing indigenous people who actually hunt their food to westerners who cause death and suffering on an industrial scale because veggies are yucky is just disingenuous. I get it, you like your murder treats.
Okay so it's acceptable to hunt for meat, and the issue is industrial farming rather than eating meat. If that's the case we can take a more tempered approach than "all western meat-eaters are bad people". After all, they didn't set up the system of industrial farming, and they grew up with it as a part of their culture.
Also, I don't eat meat and I strive to eat vegan wherever possible. But I like to think I have a materialist, non-moralist approach to the issue. At least, I don't get angry at people who haven't come to the same conclusion as me.
No YouTuber is ever going to move the needle on anything
Tf? Don't spread ideas ever then at all. Might as well stop writing comments now, it's not going to change anything
I'd rather say treat these things with the gravity they deserve. Maybe be charitable with people who seem decent overall.
You're talking about contra, so this is irrelevant
Lib , says stupid shit, youtube celebrities are bad
Doing a show with Hillary Clinton is pretty bad