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Gonzalo
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this post was submitted on 31 Jan 2024
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chapotraphouse
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I'm surprised Gonzalo doesn't get brought up by anticommunists more. He's a Peruvian Pol Pot. Baby boiling is such an obvious addition to the regular 100 stallilion dead vuvuzela no iphone shit.
Because ultimately the Khmer Rouge doesn’t have a successful legacy that needs debunking. We all know how successful the USSR was and how China continues to be. The capitalists need to be able to see “ok sure the commies maybe had incredible growth and improvement of living standards… but they killed a gajillion people to do it.”
Anti communists never talk about this though. As far as their education goes, Pol Pot killed billions, and then they suddenly fell off from the face of the planet.
Vietnam had the history that made me reevaluate everything. Obviously nobody is perfect, but Ho Chi Minh must have had a fucking crystal ball. Even Mao has notable fuck ups like the 3 pest campaign. But Minh never missed
There's also the fact that America put Pol Pot in power and pressured China to back him as well. Right after Vietnam ended, the Vietnamese went to liberate Cambodia. Vietnam decided to fight China and the US at the same time over this.
Pol Pot makes America look horrible. Think about it from the chud perspective, America sided with China over a genocidal dictator. Plus, a soft expansion of the Vietnam war after there was already a treaty signed
They attack the ones that succeeded in achieving revolution. They're perfectly fine with leftists following the theory that fails.
Pol Pot should be THE thing that anticommunist bring first, but their brainpan render them unable to learn more than two (2) ebil gommunists names
I’ve heard the line “communists and marxists need to answer for Pol Pot”
It was a podcast though
Answer: "This is why you need to read theory"
The perfect answer for leftists and non-leftists alike
Reading with your eyeballs is bourgeois
did that actually happen, do you know?
I don't really know much about shining path, and I tend to automatically disbelieve anything a settler colonial state like Peru or the US etc says, especially when its blood libel level outrageous.
It's something that got broken telephoned into a meme. IIRC a village lynched a local party leader and in retaliation the local cadre violently attacked the village. In the attack they threw boiling water at people, including pregnant women, and later Gonzalo made a somewhat unapologetic statement on the attack.
ok, thanks. I did just look for what happened (although internet research is ofc limited) and it looks like that claim comes from a testimony (that I can't find but is quoted, idk the origin of it) given to the commission set up by the Liberal, US educated president, and that it claims that a group of 29 people (including men, women, children) were gathered into a house and attacked with machetes, hatchets, and guns, and during and after this (i.e while alive and while dead) were sprayed with boiling water.
I get killing people with weapons, but I'm a bit confused at the purpose of the boiling water? idk if there's some utility of boiling water that I'm missing?
Since it was in retaliation for a lynching I imagine it was just cruelty on the cadres' part they thought was justified
yes, I would agree, and that was my first thought, supposing it were a true testimony - sometimes people use acid or boiling water to scar people in order to terrorise them. The part I don't get about the alleged action, is why they allegedly did it to bodies too?
That I don't have an answer for
Me either! Its odd.
Incidentally, the other source I could find for claims of the use of boiling water (as an execution method - reminiscent of the claims that the Uzbek leader boils his enemies), as well as other similar claims of atrocities, is from InSight Crime a non-profit think tank with offices in Washington DC, and Colombia, founded by US journalists and funded by Soros' Open Society Foundation.
I've seen allegations of involvement by the CIA, but I haven't really looked into them much. It would be around when Operation Condor was in full swing though
I think you can throw a stone in South America and find the CIA. Actually, on looking a bit further, one co-founder is a US Journalist, and the other is someone who claims to be a journalist, but has an interesting background as a British Army Officer, who apparently 'saw active service in Northern Ireland and Bosnia'.
Given how remote and rural the conflict was, and given the state of Peru's politics and history, I'm not willing to believe any of what is said about the communist party and insurrection there. I'd be a lot happier if there was corresponding testimony from the communist side (and if it weren't a crime to express support for them in Peru), but given that the trial was conducted in secret, all I ever have to go on when I do look into it ends up being western or settler-colonial government sources. Similar is true for FARC.
We have testimony from the "communist" side and it's "we dealt them a blow by annihilating 80 people there". they don't apologize or obfuscate so I don't get why you are for them
80 people, but who were those people (if that itself isn't an exaggeration ofc)?
I take it you're referring to the speech, but in that the 'victims' are referred to as combatants, so.
I'm for them because they're communists, and they're fighting against a US (and European) backed colonial government, whose ancestors genocided the people and took their land. That's enough for me, I don't feel the need to decry and condemn people resisting just because the US or a colonial government says they were bad - every side in a conflict says the other is bad, its expected.
I was under the impression the lynching happened after the PCP had been occupying the village for months and had themselves executed several villagers.
It's been a while since I've refreshed myself on it, but I recall there being a longstanding beef between the two so that lines up.
They admitted to killing babies, and they were proven to have boiled peasants alive.
People have put two and two together, but there’s no concrete proof of boiling babies IIRC. However, the other two are damning enough without combining them
Do you have the source for those admissions and that proof by any chance? The ones I could find weren't very good.
Of course, many revolutions involve the death of children, and peasants. Obviously not a good thing, but the successful ones get upheld regardless - damned sometimes in part but not in whole.
Are the death of those children and peasants purposeful and done in cold-blooded executions? Are they added to the death count and bragged about unapologetically by the leader of the movement, saying they were "annihilated" there to "teach the enemies a lesson"?
Yes peasants and children die in wars and revolutions. But if the Red Army committed such a crime as executing a village full of peasants as collective punishment Lenin would have had them shot not bragged about it
Its difficult to find a good source, isn't it?
I don't really believe the claims made by Israel about Oct 7th either. Of course, clearly at least some 'innocents' did die in crossfire on that day. I also find it difficult to believe, on the basis of testimony alone, the claims from both sides that during the Nakba and also during the recent uprising, that children were cooked in ovens. Obviously (some few) people are capable of doing such things, but its also a very good lie to tell because it causes instinctive outrage and disgust that prevent people from investigating further - blood libel is a very old and common tactic, because it works.
I think the leader of the movement doesn't/didn't accept the tale we've been told by the Liberal settler colonial government, and by US agencies, about what happened. I don't think he was stupid, whatever else he was, and it would be a stupid thing to brag about if it happened as alleged.
It's almost certaintly made up, but it's not like that's ever stopped anticommunists.
Ah ok, thanks. I know there's a lot of dislike toward Shining Path, and like I said I don't know much - I haven't taken the time to attempt to properly investigate - but from what little I do know I don't see any particular problems, just that they were unsucessful in winning (so far).
I recall @CriticalResist8@lemmygrad.ml was working on a translation of a book about Gonzalo being a CIA asset from Spanish into English. I'm not sure how much progress was made on that though.
Yes
Where can I see the progress on that? I'm interested in reading it whenever it's translated.
We'll make announcements on the prolewiki twitter and lemmygrad community as it progresses!
Ah really? That's interesting - do you know who wrote the book?
Maybe investigate a bit further
yeah, to it seems like one of those things where if america or its allies commits war crimes its all ok and 'just the nature of warfare' and 'a few bad apples' but we still gotta support Da Twoops, but if foreigners do it, its a repudiation of their entire leadership, ideology, and humanity.
The leader of the movement admitting to massacring peasants and saying it was good and he would do it again does in fact repudiate his entire ideological strain that he invented
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