this post was submitted on 09 Nov 2026
491 points (95.9% liked)

Lemmy Shitpost

42881 readers
4407 users here now

Welcome to Lemmy Shitpost. Here you can shitpost to your hearts content.

Anything and everything goes. Memes, Jokes, Vents and Banter. Though we still have to comply with lemmy.world instance rules. So behave!


Rules:

1. Be Respectful


Refrain from using harmful language pertaining to a protected characteristic: e.g. race, gender, sexuality, disability or religion.

Refrain from being argumentative when responding or commenting to posts/replies. Personal attacks are not welcome here.

...


2. No Illegal Content


Content that violates the law. Any post/comment found to be in breach of common law will be removed and given to the authorities if required.

That means:

-No promoting violence/threats against any individuals

-No CSA content or Revenge Porn

-No sharing private/personal information (Doxxing)

...


3. No Spam


Posting the same post, no matter the intent is against the rules.

-If you have posted content, please refrain from re-posting said content within this community.

-Do not spam posts with intent to harass, annoy, bully, advertise, scam or harm this community.

-No posting Scams/Advertisements/Phishing Links/IP Grabbers

-No Bots, Bots will be banned from the community.

...


4. No Porn/ExplicitContent


-Do not post explicit content. Lemmy.World is not the instance for NSFW content.

-Do not post Gore or Shock Content.

...


5. No Enciting Harassment,Brigading, Doxxing or Witch Hunts


-Do not Brigade other Communities

-No calls to action against other communities/users within Lemmy or outside of Lemmy.

-No Witch Hunts against users/communities.

-No content that harasses members within or outside of the community.

...


6. NSFW should be behind NSFW tags.


-Content that is NSFW should be behind NSFW tags.

-Content that might be distressing should be kept behind NSFW tags.

...

If you see content that is a breach of the rules, please flag and report the comment and a moderator will take action where they can.


Also check out:

Partnered Communities:

1.Memes

2.Lemmy Review

3.Mildly Infuriating

4.Lemmy Be Wholesome

5.No Stupid Questions

6.You Should Know

7.Comedy Heaven

8.Credible Defense

9.Ten Forward

10.LinuxMemes (Linux themed memes)


Reach out to

All communities included on the sidebar are to be made in compliance with the instance rules. Striker

founded 3 years ago
MODERATORS
 
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] AliOski@feddit.nl 1 points 2 days ago (1 children)

My point was not that it is always good for a person to procreate. Every person has their own special circumstances that would each need their own weighing of the situation. I would not tell a 16 year old to procreate, for example, and I would also advice against procreation in the case of a woman close to their menopause. Again however, these advices are already more nuanced and based on the specific circumstances of the individual at hand.

My point is that in a general sense, when talking about the concept of procreation itself, it should not be adviced against. In any case not with such a lack of nuance as in that text. I do not regard the "passing on of the problem" to be a valid argument against procreation. The problem is carried by humans as a collective and through the years it has been getting better and better.

Neither do I think that "prevention of potential suffering" is a valid argument. There is no joy without suffering and no life without both. Without bad there is no good. Life is about falling and getting back up. It is the essence of life. It is what gives life its worth. Would you choose not to be born at all in order to prevent your death? What even is the meaning of death if you've never been alive in the first place? To me not being born and death are equivalent: being alive is the short span in the eternity of the universe where you can experience the beauty of essence itself.

I personally can understood when you are 100% certain that the kid will have a birth defect that you might not want to have the child suffer under it. However, in many cases even those people are enjoying life just fine. People with down syndrome are famous for enjoying the little things in life and being full of happiness, despite the suffering.

In any case, the worth of the life of the child was to me a given and not even up for debate. I do not believe that children with bad parents shouldn't have been born. Imagine telling somebody with bad parents "it would be better if you weren't alive". That's obviously not moral. They would agree with you if they hated themselves, but I would not regard this as "good for their mental health". They too deserve a happy life, despite their bad parents. Their life still has a lot of potential and it could still be worth it, despite all the trauma.

So what is left, if the child's life is valuable in all cases? Just the concerns of the parents. And well, you already understood my thoughts on that. On an individual basis you might advice against procreation. In a general sense, never.

I haven't even really talked about the interests of humans as a collective.

[–] TheDarkQuark@lemmy.world 1 points 2 days ago (1 children)

I do not regard the “passing on of the problem” to be a valid argument against procreation. The problem is carried by humans as a collective and through the years it has been getting better and better.

Would it be morally permissible to commit an immoral act if the sufferer were to be mildly compensated? Consider torture. In the first year, you feed them only water and poor prison bread. In the second year, you might find the meal too inhumane and add an apple. In the third year, you give them porridge. In the fourth, you give them a pie occasionally. Would you deem the torture moral simply because it has gradually improved for the sufferer?

Neither do I think that “prevention of potential suffering” is a valid argument. There is no joy without suffering and no life without both. Without bad there is no good. Life is about falling and getting back up. It is the essence of life. It is what gives life its worth.

I agree with you that joy cannot exist without suffering, and that experiencing joy requires experiencing suffering. However, you are an already existing being. In the interests of an existing being, it is rational to enjoy life (ignoring suicide). Nonexistent "beings", however, are not subject to your predicaments. They do not need to experience joy or suffering, nor do they need to learn the necessity of "falling and getting back up", or find the meaning of death. You are projecting your views on the beauty of the universe onto a being that neither experiences nor needs to experience it. There is nothing in it for a nonexistent being.

I personally can understood when you are 100% certain that the kid will have a birth defect that you might not want to have the child suffer under it. However, in many cases even those people are enjoying life just fine. People with down syndrome are famous for enjoying the little things in life and being full of happiness, despite the suffering.

Given my previous examples of unavoidable suffering, I view the certainty of suffering as absolute. Moreover, I do not believe that just someone enjoying their life is a sufficient justification for an immoral act. Consider slavery. Enslaved people may find community among fellow sufferers. They might sing, dance, or express gratitude for what they have. Would that make slavery morally permissible? They play the hand they are dealt with and make the best of a difficult situation. The act of making the best of a bad situation does not negate the immorality of the act that imposed that suffering upon you.

In any case, the worth of the life of the child was to me a given and not even up for debate. I do not believe that children with bad parents shouldn’t have been born. Imagine telling somebody with bad parents “it would be better if you weren’t alive”. That’s obviously not moral. They would agree with you if they hated themselves, but I would not regard this as “good for their mental health”. They too deserve a happy life, despite their bad parents. Their life still has a lot of potential and it could still be worth it, despite all the trauma.

Again, I believe you are conflating existing beings with nonexistent ones. I would consider a child's life utterly valuable once they exist. However, I maintain the view that it would have been in their best interest not to be brought into existence in the first place. Also, the phrase "it would be better if you weren’t alive" is highly ambiguous. "Weren't alive" can imply death, which seems to negate the value of their already existing life. That is not what I am doing here. To someone who would not misconstrue me or be emotionally hurt, I'd rather say something along the lines of "I am so sorry, it would have been in your best interest not to be brought into existence". And yes, everyone deserves a happy life; but unfortunately, they do not get it. Instead, they experience substantial suffering that could have been avoided in the first place.

Regarding humanity as a collective, I somewhat agree with you. Creating the next generation reduces the probability of the current generation dying a miserable death. However, my point regarding this was that "kicking the can down the road" is not a good and permanent solution; it merely increases the collective suffering in the long run.

[–] AliOski@feddit.nl 1 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Would it be morally permissible to commit an immoral act if the sufferer were to be mildly compensated?

You are saying this with the pretense that the act is immoral. That pretense is what I am disputing. I would equate it with giving somebody dinner each day (dinner being life and each day being a new generation). The first day it is horrid food, maybe even sand. The person is hungry though, and they eat whatever they can. Sometimes this means they eat sand. Sometimes this means eating shit. Sometimes this means eating a bug. The next day, there are a couple berries. Keep going for years and you have a royal dinner. Yeah, in that royal dinner there sometimes still is stuff you don't like eating. Sometimes it has been poisoned by somebody. Or it is simply rotten.

Is it immoral to give somebody dinner even though you don't have much to give them or there is risk of it being poisoned? Is it more moral to not give them anything at all and refuse them?

Nonexistent "beings", however, are not subject to your predicaments. They do not need to experience joy or suffering, nor do they need to learn the necessity of "falling and getting back up", or find the meaning of death. You are projecting your views on the beauty of the universe onto a being that neither experiences nor needs to experience it. There is nothing in it for a nonexistent being.

Death and nonexistence are for the being equivalent. They are the ground state.

Let's imagine a rock. It has been laying still on the ground for hundreds of thousands of years. Suddenly, for a few minutes, some animal/human takes that rock with them, plays with the rock, experiences memories with the rock, good or bad ones, and then gets left behind again, for the eternity of time. It would not mean much to the rock, but to the animal/human it did mean something. It was the peak of meaning for that rock. I would argue that this is why it is better to give somebody life instead of not.

Again, I believe you are conflating existing beings with nonexistent ones. I would consider a child's life utterly valuable once they exist. However, I maintain the view that it would have been in their best interest not to be brought into existence in the first place. Also, the phrase "it would be better if you weren’t alive" is highly ambiguous. "Weren't alive" can imply death, which seems to negate the value of their already existing life. That is not what I am doing here. To someone who would not misconstrue me or be emotionally hurt, I'd rather say something along the lines of "I am so sorry, it would have been in your best interest not to be brought into existence".

Again, nonexistence and death are equivalent for the being themselves in my opinion. Being dead is being nonexistent except as a memory or the physical existence. To me, telling somebody that is suffering from life that it would have been better to not have come into existence at all is equivalent to telling them it would be better if they died this very moment. You are telling them the "ground state" would be preferable for them. That's in essence what you are saying. I do not see how already being alive changes this "preferred" ground state to you.

Regarding humanity as a collective, I somewhat agree with you. Creating the next generation reduces the probability of the current generation dying a miserable death. However, my point regarding this was that "kicking the can down the road" is not a good and permanent solution; it merely increases the collective suffering in the long run.

I personally have a very "biological" stance on the collective meaning of life. Our 'function' is to procreate and persist as a species. That is how our DNA has been trained due to environmental circumstances. That is how all life has been trained. I take this function that has been given to me through the selection of all my predecessors before me very serious. Like some sort of duty. In normal circumstances (historically), we would be too busy surviving and staying alive to even question the meaning of existence. It is when survival is not the primary thing being done when we lose sight of what we are "supposed" to be doing. What we are "made for". Ethics can not come to this conclusion because the universe didnt care about ethics when it created life. It just happened. You can either accept the nature of the universe and play in accordance to its rules or deny it and follow man-made ethics that would ultimately destroy humanity. Or well, "naturally select" the humans that do in fact play in accordance to the rules of the universe.

[–] TheDarkQuark@lemmy.world 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Death and nonexistence are equivalent for the being. They are the ground state.

While you can argue that the state itself may be equivalent, I do not see why you would not consider the process. Nonexistence does not involve experiencing anything. There is neither suffering nor joy. However, a being that dies has to live first. In life, they experience substantial suffering. So, if you were to look at the being’s existence (or lack thereof) as a whole, nonexistence is not the same as existing and dying.

Is it immoral to give somebody dinner even though you don’t have much to give them or there is a risk of it being poisoned? Is it more moral not to give them anything at all and refuse them?

This is an entirely different scenario. By denying food, you impose suffering (hunger) on an already existing being. In the scenario I am presenting (nonexistence), there is no experience and no deprivation. Only by bringing them into existence do you add the capacity to suffer. And only in the case of existence would your moral dilemma hold any validity.

It was the peak of meaning for that rock.

How is it the peak of meaning “for the rock”? If we agree that the rock is not sentient, cannot experience, and is not morally considerable, how can we conclude that it is the peak for the rock? The meaning is entirely external to the rock, and I don’t see how the absence of this external meaning matters if there is no subject to experience it.

Ethics cannot come to this conclusion because the universe didn’t care about ethics when it created life. It just happened.

I do not understand your argument here. This sounds very much like an appeal to nature. Are you making the point that all ethical conclusions must be in alignment with nature? Rape, cannibalism, and infanticide are all natural and are observed across multiple species. The universe doesn’t care about these things. Why should we care about any of them? I do not see how something being natural makes it obligatory.

[–] AliOski@feddit.nl 1 points 15 hours ago

[…] I do not see why you would not consider the process.

We were talking about saying to a person that they should have never existed or saying to them that they should be better off dying. A person that already lives has already experienced suffering. However, from the current moment onward, there is still a lot of suffering left. Preventing the suffering before somebody's birth or while they are already alive would be equivalent. Maintaining/returning to the ground state only matters for the future, what happened already happened. So essentially: allow the person to suffer in the future or not? That choice is equivalent for a nonexistent being and a living being.

So yes, I understand that nonexistence and death are not the same in every context, but in our discussion, it is equivalent. The past doesn't matter because you can't prevent suffering that already happened. You can only prevent current and future suffering.

This is an entirely different scenario. By denying food, you impose suffering (hunger) on an already existing being.

Well it's difficult to make an analogy that is entirely correct… Your moral dilemma assumed the act to be immoral to begin with…

How is it the peak of meaning “for the rock”? If we agree that the rock is not sentient, cannot experience, and is not morally considerable, how can we conclude that it is the peak for the rock? The meaning is entirely external to the rock, and I don’t see how the absence of this external meaning matters if there is no subject to experience it.

Excuse my English, I am not a native speaker. With "for" I more so meant that the meaning is given to the rock, and with meaning I more so meant a 'broader meaning' to the universe. Again, not a perfect analogy…

I do not understand your argument here. This sounds very much like an appeal to nature. Are you making the point that all ethical conclusions must be in alignment with nature? Rape, cannibalism, and infanticide are all natural and are observed across multiple species. The universe doesn’t care about these things. Why should we care about any of them? I do not see how something being natural makes it obligatory.

No no no not at all what I'm saying. The things you mentioned are phenomena from nature that are not required to exist. Trees don't rape each other. I meant the fundamental 'law' of natural selection. That's almost like a physical/mathematical/statistical rule of nature. Anything that is not sufficiently able to survive or procreate will go extinct, meaning only the things that are sufficiently capable of those things will remain. Trying to 'beat' natural selection is not possible, so in the grander scheme of things, the only thing you are accomplishing with not procreating is your bloodline ending and other beings that are capable of procreation taking your place. In short: it doesn't really matter in the long run, the 'suffering' you're trying to prevent will just keep on going, just not with your DNA in the gene pool.

I am noticing that this discussion has derailed quite a lot and I think we won't see eye on eye on this issue. Some fundamentally different world views. And kind of getting stuck in the same arguments. Let's leave it at this.