Lemmy Shitpost
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You are saying this with the pretense that the act is immoral. That pretense is what I am disputing. I would equate it with giving somebody dinner each day (dinner being life and each day being a new generation). The first day it is horrid food, maybe even sand. The person is hungry though, and they eat whatever they can. Sometimes this means they eat sand. Sometimes this means eating shit. Sometimes this means eating a bug. The next day, there are a couple berries. Keep going for years and you have a royal dinner. Yeah, in that royal dinner there sometimes still is stuff you don't like eating. Sometimes it has been poisoned by somebody. Or it is simply rotten.
Is it immoral to give somebody dinner even though you don't have much to give them or there is risk of it being poisoned? Is it more moral to not give them anything at all and refuse them?
Death and nonexistence are for the being equivalent. They are the ground state.
Let's imagine a rock. It has been laying still on the ground for hundreds of thousands of years. Suddenly, for a few minutes, some animal/human takes that rock with them, plays with the rock, experiences memories with the rock, good or bad ones, and then gets left behind again, for the eternity of time. It would not mean much to the rock, but to the animal/human it did mean something. It was the peak of meaning for that rock. I would argue that this is why it is better to give somebody life instead of not.
Again, nonexistence and death are equivalent for the being themselves in my opinion. Being dead is being nonexistent except as a memory or the physical existence. To me, telling somebody that is suffering from life that it would have been better to not have come into existence at all is equivalent to telling them it would be better if they died this very moment. You are telling them the "ground state" would be preferable for them. That's in essence what you are saying. I do not see how already being alive changes this "preferred" ground state to you.
I personally have a very "biological" stance on the collective meaning of life. Our 'function' is to procreate and persist as a species. That is how our DNA has been trained due to environmental circumstances. That is how all life has been trained. I take this function that has been given to me through the selection of all my predecessors before me very serious. Like some sort of duty. In normal circumstances (historically), we would be too busy surviving and staying alive to even question the meaning of existence. It is when survival is not the primary thing being done when we lose sight of what we are "supposed" to be doing. What we are "made for". Ethics can not come to this conclusion because the universe didnt care about ethics when it created life. It just happened. You can either accept the nature of the universe and play in accordance to its rules or deny it and follow man-made ethics that would ultimately destroy humanity. Or well, "naturally select" the humans that do in fact play in accordance to the rules of the universe.
While you can argue that the state itself may be equivalent, I do not see why you would not consider the process. Nonexistence does not involve experiencing anything. There is neither suffering nor joy. However, a being that dies has to live first. In life, they experience substantial suffering. So, if you were to look at the being’s existence (or lack thereof) as a whole, nonexistence is not the same as existing and dying.
This is an entirely different scenario. By denying food, you impose suffering (hunger) on an already existing being. In the scenario I am presenting (nonexistence), there is no experience and no deprivation. Only by bringing them into existence do you add the capacity to suffer. And only in the case of existence would your moral dilemma hold any validity.
How is it the peak of meaning “for the rock”? If we agree that the rock is not sentient, cannot experience, and is not morally considerable, how can we conclude that it is the peak for the rock? The meaning is entirely external to the rock, and I don’t see how the absence of this external meaning matters if there is no subject to experience it.
I do not understand your argument here. This sounds very much like an appeal to nature. Are you making the point that all ethical conclusions must be in alignment with nature? Rape, cannibalism, and infanticide are all natural and are observed across multiple species. The universe doesn’t care about these things. Why should we care about any of them? I do not see how something being natural makes it obligatory.
We were talking about saying to a person that they should have never existed or saying to them that they should be better off dying. A person that already lives has already experienced suffering. However, from the current moment onward, there is still a lot of suffering left. Preventing the suffering before somebody's birth or while they are already alive would be equivalent. Maintaining/returning to the ground state only matters for the future, what happened already happened. So essentially: allow the person to suffer in the future or not? That choice is equivalent for a nonexistent being and a living being.
So yes, I understand that nonexistence and death are not the same in every context, but in our discussion, it is equivalent. The past doesn't matter because you can't prevent suffering that already happened. You can only prevent current and future suffering.
Well it's difficult to make an analogy that is entirely correct… Your moral dilemma assumed the act to be immoral to begin with…
Excuse my English, I am not a native speaker. With "for" I more so meant that the meaning is given to the rock, and with meaning I more so meant a 'broader meaning' to the universe. Again, not a perfect analogy…
No no no not at all what I'm saying. The things you mentioned are phenomena from nature that are not required to exist. Trees don't rape each other. I meant the fundamental 'law' of natural selection. That's almost like a physical/mathematical/statistical rule of nature. Anything that is not sufficiently able to survive or procreate will go extinct, meaning only the things that are sufficiently capable of those things will remain. Trying to 'beat' natural selection is not possible, so in the grander scheme of things, the only thing you are accomplishing with not procreating is your bloodline ending and other beings that are capable of procreation taking your place. In short: it doesn't really matter in the long run, the 'suffering' you're trying to prevent will just keep on going, just not with your DNA in the gene pool.
I am noticing that this discussion has derailed quite a lot and I think we won't see eye on eye on this issue. Some fundamentally different world views. And kind of getting stuck in the same arguments. Let's leave it at this.