but you know it's almost all of them and practically all their institutions. It's fair for their victims to be wary. It's fair to talk about their abusers, who identified themselves above all else as cis men, US Americans, Germans and Jews and were enabled by almost all cis men, US Americans, Germans and Jews. To talk about them as exactly that, as cis men, US Americans, Germans and Jews.
Yes, of course it's not cis men, it's patriarchy. It's not US Americans, it's American imperialism, it's not Germans, it's German Nazism, it's not Jews is it's zionist fascism. Not just ideologies, but structures linked to production and reproduction. That must be clear to us. But there are loud privileged people among those who aren't in the group of chosen victims, who want us to never ever use the names of the structures our oppressors build their identities around. At least not when talking about their crimes.
But what is patriarchy? Can you define it without saying "men". Can you tell the history of imperialism without telling the history of the US? Can you tell me what the Nazis thought they were fighting for, without mentioning their German national identity. For whom do the Zionists think they are killing and lightning the world on fire? Who benefits and enjoys the privilege of ruling the patriarchal family, ruling the US empire or ruling an ethnostate?
It's the believe, that men are superior, that US Americans deserve the spoils of imperialism, it's the believe that Germans should rule the world or that Jews must drown the land in blood to build their ethnostate. And even those who didn't actively participate still benefit immensely materially. You have to risk complete exclusion from the respective culture to really reject your bloody privilege.
Yes, male dominance, US imperialism, German Nazism, zionist fascism all have allies outside of their chosen benefactors. Don't pretend I didn't say it. Privileged cis women, comprador rulers, axis countries, evangelical zionists. There are more people living in comprador ruled periphery countries than in the US. It's still the US empire.
That doesn't change the fact, that these ideologies are nothing more or less than the ideologies of chauvinist cis men, of racist US Americans, of racist Germans and of racist Jews, at least in this their enduring oppressive historic moment.
For them to overcome these chauvinist position, to reverse their betrayal of the worlds working class, which happened to their own great benefit but can only lead to their eventual self destruction, to reject their unearned privilege, to escape their fascist death cults, that are build on a single specific identify, these problems have to be named as a problem specific to this identity: Men must address their patriarchal privilege as privileges of men. Today's Imperialism is a US American problem, it has to be fought as such. Never forget the responsibility of Germans for Nazism. And when you mention Zionism, don't pretend it's got nothing to do with Jewish identity as it is understood by most Jews and almost every single Jewish institution.
Yes, we must absolutely not fall into chauvinism and anti-semitism ourselves. We would become tools for further oppression. Liberation will even benefit the oppressors in the end. But in the mean time, let the victims name their abusers by the name those abusers screamed during their torture, if they so choose. Language is nothing but a tool to affect change in the world. Every oppressed class needs to lead the struggle for it's own liberation or it is doomed to fail. Let the victims decide how to use language in their fight for liberation. You can offer ideas, but know when to step back, as long as you're still privileged. Don't impose your strategy on the leaders of the liberation. They are in the best position to know when to coldly analyze the oppressors institutions and ideologies using academic names of ideologies and when to boldly call out individuals by the name they have chosen themselves to tie their crimes to.
We must support the right of queer people, of woman to decide when it is tactically beneficial to talk about problems with "men". And they should be able to do so without screams of "not all men" immediately drowning out any discussion. Cis men should know their place is to offer support instead of leading the feminist struggle.
We must support the right of people from the periphery to speak about "Americans", when they tactically choose this verbal shortcut over the academic "imperial core countries". They will need to liberate themselves on their own terms.
The survivors of the concentration camps said they were rescued from "the Germans". Did the Soviet soldiers rush to correct them:"Not all Germans! We only came to rescue you from the Nazis!". No, that would have been tasteless, uncalled for.
Are you living every day in mortal danger? No? Then If you ever meet a Palestinian who survives this long long genocide (and that's a big if), will you rudely interrupt her if she tells you the story of how she fled from "the Jews"? Will you barge in with a smug:"not all Jews!" Even though her failure to be born as a Jew was exactly what condemned her and her family? Let them tell their own story.
And let's remember to assume some good faith online. We don't know every comrades background.
What is the tactical purpose that would be served in any context by talking about Jews rather than Zionism? If we want to look at things from a tactical perspective, surely framing things in terms of Zionism is the correct approach. The sort of people who would be alienated by critiquing the Israeli state but would agree with critiquing Jews are 1) completely dwarfed in number by the reverse, and 2) reactionaries who you don't necessarily want to attract to a movement, or if you do attract them you want to get them to drop their reactionary sentiments.
It seems like the only "tactical" argument against framing things in terms of Zionism would be the tailist one. Otherwise, again what tactical consideration is actually served by it?
So first of, as I have said many times, it's not an either or. We do not need to become tailist or stop critiquing "Israel".
Some orgs, will want to address Jews as Jews for the same reason we address men as men. Beyond the abstract concepts of Patriarchy (the rule of men) and Zionism (the project of the jewish ethno colonialism), men are real people who exist in the real world and so are Jewish people. They are not just objects of debate. Today, most Jewish institutions are zionist, but they don't need to be forever. Just as we call out:"You men need to stop being so sexist!" (even though not all men are sexist). We should also be able to say:"Jews need to stop being so zionist!" (even though not 100% are). For example to convince and empower them to address this issue within their institutions and communities, to get other actors in local areas, cities and nation states to make cooperation with Jewish institutions depend on a clear distance from Zionism.
Zionism also depends on the idea of Jews as the eternal victims who can do no wrong. We should be able to counter that by insisting, that many Jewish communities are fascist and need to change, while some need our support in countering the institutionalized Zionism.
Those examples still use sexism and Zionism as the point of critique.
We should absolutely not refrain from calling Zionists Zionists just out of fear of being accused of antisemitic. This is completely uncontroversial and already agreed upon in antizionist spaces, because there have been so many attempts to equate antizionism with antisemitism, if you're afraid of being accused of that, you're not going to call yourself antizionist in the first place.
Who exactly has a problem with saying Jews shouldn't be Zionists? That is already a settled point in spaces like this. What we're talking about is moving away from that, saying that the existing discourse and norms in antizionist spaces are not satisfactory for some reason. What that reason is, you never seem to actually say. You just allude to, "the same reason," "just as," etc, but you seem either unwilling or unable to actually put any reason into actual words.
In the past, the Chapo sub and then Hexbear for a time had jokes about "the mayocide" or "force-femming all men." Over time, the shift has been away from this sort of edgy/ironic humor, which I believe is correct. So you keep bringing up stuff like that as examples, but the way I see it, all those examples are contrary to what you're saying here. "All men should be castrated," is not "tactical" rhetoric, it's a vent, or a joke. If that sort of thing isn't present in a feminist space, are you saying that there is some need to add it? That feminist critiques that don't make such blanket statements are missing something? Then, what exactly is that need?
Again, why won't you actually just state the reasons in words? Does a reason actually exist? Or is all this discourse, like I've been saying, just pointless controversy bait, driven by a desire to differentiate oneself from the masses now that antizionism has become popular?
I think I did put it into very plain words many times. Chauvinist groups who claim supremacy need to be called by their name instead of allowed to hide behind abstractions. And most people here seem to understand it. Infact my post seems to be well received and not that controversial, rather than "controversy bait". If you agree on so many things with me, I'm happy. I feel like you're the one desperately insisting on controversy. I've been consistently pointing out our common ground in an effort to find a synthesis. Already in other threads. However you seem to see any agreement as proof of pointlessness and any disagreement as imposible to bridge. I feel like there's no way to please you either way.
Yes and that's good. But we haven't been moving away from adressing men specifically and telling them, that they need to change, as for example bell hooks does in her book "the will to change", which has been read to great success in hexbear reading group and is still often recommended.