this post was submitted on 08 Sep 2026
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but you know it's almost all of them and practically all their institutions. It's fair for their victims to be wary. It's fair to talk about their abusers, who identified themselves above all else as cis men, US Americans, Germans and Jews and were enabled by almost all cis men, US Americans, Germans and Jews. To talk about them as exactly that, as cis men, US Americans, Germans and Jews.

Yes, of course it's not cis men, it's patriarchy. It's not US Americans, it's American imperialism, it's not Germans, it's German Nazism, it's not Jews is it's zionist fascism. Not just ideologies, but structures linked to production and reproduction. That must be clear to us. But there are loud privileged people among those who aren't in the group of chosen victims, who want us to never ever use the names of the structures our oppressors build their identities around. At least not when talking about their crimes.

But what is patriarchy? Can you define it without saying "men". Can you tell the history of imperialism without telling the history of the US? Can you tell me what the Nazis thought they were fighting for, without mentioning their German national identity. For whom do the Zionists think they are killing and lightning the world on fire? Who benefits and enjoys the privilege of ruling the patriarchal family, ruling the US empire or ruling an ethnostate?

It's the believe, that men are superior, that US Americans deserve the spoils of imperialism, it's the believe that Germans should rule the world or that Jews must drown the land in blood to build their ethnostate. And even those who didn't actively participate still benefit immensely materially. You have to risk complete exclusion from the respective culture to really reject your bloody privilege.

Yes, male dominance, US imperialism, German Nazism, zionist fascism all have allies outside of their chosen benefactors. Don't pretend I didn't say it. Privileged cis women, comprador rulers, axis countries, evangelical zionists. There are more people living in comprador ruled periphery countries than in the US. It's still the US empire.

That doesn't change the fact, that these ideologies are nothing more or less than the ideologies of chauvinist cis men, of racist US Americans, of racist Germans and of racist Jews, at least in this their enduring oppressive historic moment.

For them to overcome these chauvinist position, to reverse their betrayal of the worlds working class, which happened to their own great benefit but can only lead to their eventual self destruction, to reject their unearned privilege, to escape their fascist death cults, that are build on a single specific identify, these problems have to be named as a problem specific to this identity: Men must address their patriarchal privilege as privileges of men. Today's Imperialism is a US American problem, it has to be fought as such. Never forget the responsibility of Germans for Nazism. And when you mention Zionism, don't pretend it's got nothing to do with Jewish identity as it is understood by most Jews and almost every single Jewish institution.

Yes, we must absolutely not fall into chauvinism and anti-semitism ourselves. We would become tools for further oppression. Liberation will even benefit the oppressors in the end. But in the mean time, let the victims name their abusers by the name those abusers screamed during their torture, if they so choose. Language is nothing but a tool to affect change in the world. Every oppressed class needs to lead the struggle for it's own liberation or it is doomed to fail. Let the victims decide how to use language in their fight for liberation. You can offer ideas, but know when to step back, as long as you're still privileged. Don't impose your strategy on the leaders of the liberation. They are in the best position to know when to coldly analyze the oppressors institutions and ideologies using academic names of ideologies and when to boldly call out individuals by the name they have chosen themselves to tie their crimes to.

We must support the right of queer people, of woman to decide when it is tactically beneficial to talk about problems with "men". And they should be able to do so without screams of "not all men" immediately drowning out any discussion. Cis men should know their place is to offer support instead of leading the feminist struggle.

We must support the right of people from the periphery to speak about "Americans", when they tactically choose this verbal shortcut over the academic "imperial core countries". They will need to liberate themselves on their own terms.

The survivors of the concentration camps said they were rescued from "the Germans". Did the Soviet soldiers rush to correct them:"Not all Germans! We only came to rescue you from the Nazis!". No, that would have been tasteless, uncalled for.

Are you living every day in mortal danger? No? Then If you ever meet a Palestinian who survives this long long genocide (and that's a big if), will you rudely interrupt her if she tells you the story of how she fled from "the Jews"? Will you barge in with a smug:"not all Jews!" Even though her failure to be born as a Jew was exactly what condemned her and her family? Let them tell their own story.

And let's remember to assume some good faith online. We don't know every comrades background.

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[–] Johnny_Arson@hexbear.net 27 points 18 hours ago* (last edited 18 hours ago) (2 children)

My question to you given only one of these groups has suffered systemic oppression in living memory: I agree with you on most of these points but do you think truly as a white westerner (not saying you are) but focusing on Jewish perpetrating of this genocide, will that make more socialists or more Nazis. This is a genuine question because lately I have been seeing a lot of reactionaries focusing on the Jewish aspect of this one current example. White people in general are still doing the same shit and I see way too many so-called leftists taking this stance and claiming it is somehow different because this genocide is "ongoing" implying that indigenous people in the US are some sort of lost cause and that their genocide is somehow over. This is a common talking point among patsocs for example.

Actually Nazi antisemitism still exists in a way that does not apply to any of those groups. There are no fascists encouraging misandry or anti white racism.

There are 100% still actual Nazis out there that do want to exterminate jews and so to equate that with men or Germans is really fucked. Nobody is out here saying kill all the men.

With the examples you have given it implies there is a legitimate faction of feminists that are justifiably or not seeking to persecute men, or that there is a faction that is fighting against the demonization of Germans. This is a frankly absurd strawman.

[–] diamath@hexbear.net 17 points 13 hours ago* (last edited 7 hours ago) (1 children)

My question to you given only one of these groups has suffered systemic oppression in living memory

how is this relevant?

but focusing on Jewish perpetrating of this genocide, will that make more socialists or more Nazis

this is not about as much about "focusing" on jews but more about the ongoing defocusing of the "jewish" part of jewish supremacism.

Actually Nazi antisemitism still exists in a way that does not apply to any of those groups.

but it has no power. That's the key difference when talking about zionism which has huge amounts of power. There are however no comparably powerful antisemitic institutions. Not even close.

There are 100% still actual Nazis out there that do want to exterminate jews and so to equate that with men or Germans is really fucked.

It would however be also very foolish to not act like the majority of white men or a majority of germans are not complicit in nazi shit.

there is a faction that is fighting against the demonization of Germans. This is a frankly absurd strawman.

there is though? What do you think all that german guilt that gets paraded around is actually for?? There is a huge movement to downplay the role men have in the current systems of oppression, #NotAllMen, antiwoke stuff constantly focuses about how giving women preferential treatment for jobs or scholarships puts men at a disadvantage because we supposedly have gender equality

[–] woodenghost@hexbear.net 4 points 2 hours ago

this is not about as much about "focusing" on jews but more about the ongoing defocusing of the "jewish" part of jewish supremacism.

Yes, thanks for summarizing it perfectly.

[–] America_Worst@hexbear.net 19 points 18 hours ago (2 children)

If it were me, I would worry more about stopping israel from committing genocide in my name than arguing with leftists who are against that genocide.

Right or wrong, the longer that israel exists the more and more people are going to see as OP sees.

Idk about you but I feel a kind of way about seeing one of those six pointed star after seeing enough videos of little kids ripped to shreds by idf soldiers.

[–] robot_dog_with_gun@hexbear.net 19 points 17 hours ago (1 children)

If it were me, I would worry more about stopping israel from committing genocide in my name than arguing with leftists who are against that genocide.

this argument is spurious. it takes a few minutes out of someone's day to post, often multitasking with waiting in line or literally shitting in a toilet. Our actual activism does very little to impact geopolitics as it is and the very marginal effort of typing a few words isn't going to make the difference.

[–] America_Worst@hexbear.net 5 points 8 hours ago* (last edited 8 hours ago)

If there is no difference then this just is a giant reenactment of waiting for godot except the godot is the end of israel and america killing schoolchildren.

will you be the vladimir to my estragon?

[–] Johnny_Arson@hexbear.net 11 points 18 hours ago* (last edited 18 hours ago) (2 children)

How do you propose this then and why not focus on the US that is responsible for its existance. Say you focus only on the destruction of Israel. There is a real chance if you do that then the US just lashes out to protect its vessel. Israel on the other hand is entirely dependent on the US. Is that and US imperialism not the primary contradiction and Israel simply an extension of that?

Obviously Israel by necessity must be destroyed but I feel like people are making a grave strategic error here.

[–] diamath@hexbear.net 10 points 11 hours ago* (last edited 6 hours ago)

How do you propose this then and why not focus on the US that is responsible for its existance.

Because it's (comparatively) easier to focus on the zionist project than it is to focus on the hegemon funding it. The liberation of Palestine would also significantly weaken the US making it easier to liberate other people's and nations. Also the destruction of the US is not a goal in itself. The liberation of people is. So destroying Israel is actually the direct approach from this perspective.

[–] America_Worst@hexbear.net 10 points 18 hours ago (1 children)

Okay so youre saying destroying israel is a bad goal?

[–] Johnny_Arson@hexbear.net 11 points 18 hours ago* (last edited 17 hours ago) (1 children)

Obviously Israel by necessity must be destroyed but I feel like people are making a grave strategic error here.

Didn't even read my comment.

The best outcome is the US collapsing itself with this war with Iran while hopefully the regional coalition defends Palestine.

I dont think you actually read my whole comment.

[–] America_Worst@hexbear.net 12 points 17 hours ago (1 children)

No you said the us will lash out to protect its vassal if israel is destroyed.

Israel is going to fall before america does.

[–] Johnny_Arson@hexbear.net 6 points 17 hours ago* (last edited 17 hours ago) (1 children)

And what will happen then? Should we not be doing everything in our power to prevent what the US is poised to do in response to that?

I also do not believe the US will allow its most important vassal to fall without an omnicidal retaliatory response.

[–] America_Worst@hexbear.net 13 points 17 hours ago (1 children)

Then the people of Palestine will get their homeland back :)

[–] Johnny_Arson@hexbear.net 6 points 17 hours ago (2 children)

I prefer a solution that does not involve nukes flying and for that I can only see ensuring the US falls first.

[–] America_Worst@hexbear.net 10 points 13 hours ago (1 children)

So youre another jewish person giving reasons why palestinians shouldnt immediately get all their land back under a post criticizing that

[–] Johnny_Arson@hexbear.net 1 points 4 hours ago (1 children)

No I am not I'm just someone in the US fighting the state here. Idk why you make that assumption. If israel does fall first without the US choosing Armageddon that would be great. We all want the same thing here. Really weird that you just assumed I was jewish.

[–] America_Worst@hexbear.net 7 points 4 hours ago (1 children)

it feels like we dont want the same thing. i want the immediate end of israel and the settlers gone so palestinians stop being genocided and they can go home. youre saying that shouldnt happen because fearmongering of american nuclear threats

[–] Johnny_Arson@hexbear.net 3 points 4 hours ago (1 children)

No I am not. I am saying it won't happen without people talking direct action against the states that are propping them up. Why do you keep deliberately misinterpreting me?

[–] America_Worst@hexbear.net 6 points 3 hours ago (1 children)

youre saying palestine needs to wait right now because otherwise our government is going to launch nukes.

how long should they wait johnny 5 years? 10 years?

[–] Johnny_Arson@hexbear.net 2 points 3 hours ago (1 children)

No they should not. Ideally both fall together. I can't do anything but organize against my own state same goes for everyone. That was in the context of how the us might respond to losing at no point did I say I want them to stop fighting. The hell is wrong with people all trying to find the worst possible interpretation to dunk on each other.

[–] America_Worst@hexbear.net 3 points 1 hour ago (1 children)

if it feels like dunking then ok lets check if we are on the same page. do you agree that the jewish settlers in palestine should be expelled so palestinians can have the right of return to all territories including the territory stolen in 1948?

[–] Johnny_Arson@hexbear.net 2 points 1 hour ago

Absolutely. No question about that.

[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml 10 points 17 hours ago (1 children)

I don't see a future where nukes don't fly tbh

Both Israel and the US would rather destroy the world than let the world exist without them.

[–] Johnny_Arson@hexbear.net 4 points 17 hours ago (1 children)

Yes but one of these scenarios is much worse than the other. Israel can only launch maybe one or two. The US can end the world. I agree our situation is tucked I just think we need to keep our eyes on the primary enablers.

[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml 12 points 17 hours ago (1 children)

Then should we not focus on Israel first? In their collapse they might launch a few nukes, and then they're spent.

Or are you saying the US will use nuclear weapons if Israel falls? Because I'm actually not sure about that.

[–] Johnny_Arson@hexbear.net 3 points 16 hours ago (1 children)

That is exactly what I am afraid of. I fear Trump or someone like him might launch them at Iran or a similar target in another stupid war. The US in either case is more dangerous. Israel would implode immediately without western and US backing. The same can not be said in the reverse.

[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml 10 points 16 hours ago* (last edited 16 hours ago)

I think collapsing the US is more likely to result in it launching its nukes than collapsing Israel. If Israel collapses the US might start blasting, but more likely the Western hemisphere pilled faction will win out and they'll just retreat.

The US will have to be dismantled from within by civil war, so it nukes itself. The collapse of Israel makes that inevitable.