Ask Lemmy

Honestly, this is like listening to some old smelly smoker puffing unfiltered rollups tell me how unhealthy vaping is.

https://www.apa.org/monitor/2009/02/coca-cola

I don't care about your addictions, you're welcome to have them. But to pretend it isn't an addiction and is actually healthy for you is more ridiculous than those "you can't get addicted to weed" bros.

Not to mention that caffeine is a more risky and harmful drug than cannabis, except for when it comes to first-time inebriation, where cannabis slightly takes the lead.

70% of daily users get physical withdrawal if they skip their daily fix.

Physical. Withdrawal.

Caffeine makes you much more likely to hear auditory hallucinations. We had one coworker at a phone dispatch, who yelled loud af and always banged her keyboard constantly, some sort of neurosis. She was literally banned from doing orders that the govt paid for because of her massive error rate, because she was always so amped on caffeine as to be half-blind. No-one drunk the shit she made. It was like tar. And she had like a dozen cups during the working day.

"Healthy" yeah sure.

If your daily caffeine fix is not an addiction and just for your health, would you believe my daily wake&bake is also just for health reasons and carries absolutely zero risk?

Leave it at that.

"I want to be ignorant of any possible downsides in my addiction! >:( I don't want to hear 'science' about it, I listen to my feelings."

Especially when

FWIW I think energy drinks suck, they absolutely can cause harm.

That's like someone dissing vaping while reeking of old tobacco. Rofl.

We could go on rant about excess anything, like oxygen or water,

"Sola dosis facit venenum" pffft. No, we really can't in the same way. Water isn't toxic in any amounts. Dehydration through hyponatremia is a thing called water toxicity, but it's not aptly named, as you need distilled water and can't have any salt, otherwise the water won't be "toxic". Also, you can breathe 100% oxygen and be completely fine.

Caffeine LD50 values are honestly rather low. Not as low as alcohol, but still, pretty low. And the amount it takes for harmful effects to show up is literally on the same level as an average to high daily caffeine user.

So no, your substance use isn't the same as drinking water and breathing. All substance use has inherent risks, no matter how small. Yes, even caffeine and cannabis. What is ridiculous to me is that the same folk who literally can't manage without a daily dose of their chosen substance without physical withdrawal (>70% caffeine users get headaches if they stop) and think there's no harm in it, are the same people who think cannabis causes psychosis.

Stimulant psychosis is much more likely. Just like is psychosis brought on by alcohol.

excess caffeine and other stimulants are not comparable to what would be considered normal consumption

Ignorant. Just so ignorant.

Like any addict you're rationalising your addiction. But unlike many addicts, you're at the same time also judging others for the same addiction you have and making up "facts" you feel are right.

Regular, excessive coffee consumption (typically >4 cups/day or >400-600mg caffeine) can cause negative effects including, insomnia, jitters, anxiety, and heart palpitations. It may cause digestive distress (acid reflux, diarrhea), increased blood pressure, addiction, and potential bone density issues. Regular use often leads to tolerance, requiring more coffee to achieve the same effect

https://www.medparkhospital.com/en-US/lifestyles/coffee#d

How many cups of coffee before you're in lethal territory?

Because unlike for cannabis, there really is a well documented number for that.

Caffeine also makes it three times more likely you'll have slight auditory hallucinations.

How a Lawsuit Against Coca-Cola Convinced Americans to Love Caffeine

In 1909, the federal government brought charges against the country’s best known soft-drink manufacturer, charging it with false advertising and for quietly loading its bottles with a risky stimulant. The case — named for a seizure of specially prepared syrup — was formally titled United States vs. Forty Barrels and Twenty Kegs of Coca Cola.

Wiley and the head of his pharmaceutical division, Lyman Kebler, were focused on the “medicated” soft drinks sold to the public at that time. Many — with names like Kola-Kok and Koke — still slipped some cocaine into the mix. Others like, Seven-Up, contained lithium, and others, like Coca-Cola in the early 20th century, contained a jolting level of caffeine (a glass then was comparable to a can of Red Bull today) and were often cheerfully marketed to children. Kebler, during one of his investigative trips, was horrified to find children as young as four slugging down the stimulant-rich soft drink. He drafted a report on the beverages with the provocative title: “Habit-Forming Agents: Their Indiscriminate Sale and Use a Menace to the Public Welfare

The government lined up a formidable array of more than 20 witnesses critical of the soft drink company and its product. These included toxicologists who testified that the drink caused “reflex irritability,” behavioral scientists who warned that it was addictive — noting that the drink was nicknamed “Dope” and “Coke” — and consumers who described themselves as hooked on the drink. The testimony finished with Kebler, who declared that “caffeine is a drug having poisonous tendency.”

Coca-Cola naturally disputed all of this. Vice president Charles Howard Candler emphasized that “The company has never advertised or sold Coca-Cola under the names ‘Dope’ or ‘Coke” or any other drug-related terms.” (It did not trademark the use of “Coke” until 1945.) It also provided an assortment of happy soda drinks and a roster of toxicologists who countered the government testimony by declaring caffeine safe. “I know of no case of caffeine in any quantity causing death,” stated John Marshall, of the University of Pennsylvania, famed as one of the country’s leading toxicologists

The government would fight that decision even after Wiley’s retirement the following year and, in 1916, the U.S. Supreme Court reversed the finding and declared caffeine to be an additive under the law. Shortly later, Coca-Cola settled the case by agreeing to pay all court costs — and by cutting the amount of caffeine in its soft-drink by half

https://time.com/5405132/coca-cola-trial-caffeine-history/

Leading toxicologist saying "no amount of caffeine is deadly" is ridiculously see-through bullshit nowadays.

Caffeine is a psychostimulant with the same central effects as the classical nervous system psychostimulants cocaine and amphetamine, according to Sergi Ferré

A variety of studies have shown caffeine withdrawal to be what Griffiths described as “a robust parametric phenomenon.” Chronic maintenance dose, duration of caffeine maintenance, and within-day frequency of dosing all impact the probability and severity of withdrawal. Even just three days of chronic exposure and once-a-day administration are sufficient to trigger withdrawal signals

Smith and colleagues conducted a longitudinal study involving 2,000 pupils. They administered two dietary surveys, one at the start and the other at the end of the school year, and collected two sets of measures of attainment and behavior. The researchers are currently analyzing cross- sectional data.3 Thus far, they have shown that those who often consumed energy drinks were more likely to have low attendance, receive a sanction, and receive poorer grades. These findings are true even when controlling for possible confounders, such as socioeconomic status and special educational needs.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK202225/

If you think caffeine is without harms and even healthy for you, you've drunk the koolaid of corporate propaganda.

How do you know coffee isn't harmful to the brain? Oh right, because you just don't like the idea and never even thought to look it uo.

I'm very skeptical of those food science papers that claim eg. coffee causes longer life expectancy, they don't usually hold up

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caffeine_dependence?wprov=sfla1 since you want to use Wikipedia as a source... I have read your article and it just doesn't tell the whole story. I will suggest some changes 

Moreover, no doctor will ever recommend coffee to anyone with heart issue