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The EU is the most successful multilateral group on the planet and the height of civilization.
To me, "proud" is the wrong word. I didn't do anything when it comes to founding the EU. So how can I be proud of something I didn't do? "Grateful" is the better word in my opinion.
Pride makes you part of the system. Gatefulness puts you outside of it. It may seem pointless to weigh between the two terms, but surely it is sourced from mindset and influences the mindset.
We don't control or significantly influence the system individually. Still, it's important to take ownership and control, even if it's only in the very small, even if it's just being a good citizen, even if it's just being friendly or supportive of other people. Especially for a diverse, collaborative, and democratic system like Europe it's important we see ourselves not as passive receivers but as active parts.
Being a part of the system is enough to be proud as long as you're not actively working on destroying it. Even if it's small, even if it's just being friendly to others, participating is upholding.
If we don't see ourselves as active parts of the system, others will influence and change it. The biggest risk is those who have the motivation and capability (be it position, influence, or money) will erode it.
The culture that made that happen also played a role in making you who you are. It's OK to be proud of that.
(And likewise, it's good to correct for how your culture influenced you in ways that you aren't proud of. For example, it took me a long time to realise what Black Peter must look like from the outside.)
There isn't a single European culture, and this word is often a dog whistle to racism, especially in Northern Europe.
Not saying you're using it that way, just telling you.
Wait, what word? Culture?
Note that I wasn't talking about European culture specifically, or any specific culture, for that matter. Just that your environment shaped you, and thus you can feel some pride for what that environment also begat. Pride needn't be reserved for the extreme right.
No culture is 100%, but we in Europe mostly share a foundational Greco-Roman philosophy and the values of Christianity and Enlightenment.
You mean the one that was gone until it returned from the Islamic world?
Uh-huh Palestine isn't in Europe, last I checked.
Palestine isn't anywhere, last I checked.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine
It was, but the power monkeys always want more power. And centralising power in Europe has failed every time in history.
Please tell me you are not trying to argue that the EU is doomed to fail because Hitler and Napoleon both failed
The EU is doomed to fail if it continues centralising power though.
Its strength is in its diversity, its consensus model rather than tyranny of majority, allowing smaller countries a voice against larger ones so that Germany and France don't entirely dominate.
The EU has a lot of good, but that doesn't mean we need to bury our heads in the sand to its negatives either. It's not perfect. It's better than many similar organisations, and we should praise it for that, but praise doesn't mean it's immune to criticism either.
You nailed it. A cell-like structure is much harder to penetrate. Unlike a homogeneous blob with one supreme leader.
I agree with that (for the most part, I think it could do with a bit more centralisation), but I don't think it's what "every time in history" is pointing to
Fair.
Like the European Union?
The EU was created in 1993. There were no wars in Europe since ww2 until then. Draw your own conclusions
You have got to be taking the piss
This does not even include the many smaller-scale rebellions or anything that happened in the Caucasus
None of those are edit. Major multinational genocidal wars. Bosnia is the worst international war on European soil since 1945.
A) Civil wars are wars by definition.
B) Some of these conflicts were international. EG the 1956 Hungarian Uprising pitched Soviet-Russian forces against Hungarians.
Yeah, I'm talking major war. Not a civil war. It's really not a big deal.
Some of the deadliest wars in history were civil wars. The Taiping Rebellion (1850β1864) is up there with WW2.
The hell is your definition of a war that excludes all of those? The Hungarian revolution, Turkish invasion of Cyprus, and Transnistria war were all international conflicts as well
I will also note that the Bosnian war is both part of the Yugoslav wars that I mentioned and also kicked off before the Treaty of Maastricht
Er, the previous definition sets the current one?
Conflict is not war. War is international conflict, not two sets of dickheads doing the same thing they've been doing for millennia.
Here's a hint. How many countries were involved in Bosnia and when was the first international genocide conviction in Europe since the Nuremberg trials?
Okay so if we take your definition in which a civil war isn't a war: when the Soviet Union rolled tens of thousands of troops with tanks into Hungary, or when Turkey invaded Cyprus and made a new country out of a third of it, or when Russia put 14,000 troops in Moldova and made a new country out of the bit north of the Dniester, what exactly made those not international in your view?
At least three depending on what you count as a country. Again, given that it started before the EU existed, why are you saying that no wars happened between the end of WWII and the creation of the EU?
As I said. It was the only genocide since WW2 in Europe.
...okay? How is that relevant to your claim of there being no wars in Europe from 1945 to 1993?
Bosnia was the only one to involve international involvement and genocide. I'm not sure how I can explain it more simply.
It was one of the largest international interventions of the late 20th century.
United Nations (UNPROFOR): The UN Protection Force involved troops from over 40 countries, including the United Kingdom, France, Canada, Pakistan, and the Netherlands.
NATO: Marking its first-ever combat operations, NATO intervened via Operation Deliberate Force in 1995. Key contributors included the United States, United Kingdom, France, Germany, and Spain.
Contact Group: A diplomatic body formed to facilitate peace, consisting of the United States, United Kingdom, France, Germany, Italy, and Russia.
Foreign Volunteers: Thousands of volunteers joined various sides, including "mujahideen" from various Middle Eastern and North African countries supporting the Bosniaks, and Greek and Russian volunteers supporting the Bosnian Serbs.
Right, so you're just objectively wrong and also the genocide conviction is indeed irrelevant.
And to counter that, you're bringing up an example that also started before the EU was made
It's considered the worst conflict in Europe since 1945. Genocide, ethnic cleansing. Millions displaced, rape as a weapon. Major multinational involvement.
If you want to dance on the head of the pin, yes there were other wars, but none of that scale Doesn't change history.
Lol, yes it started in 1992, well done you finally got something right.
So, in other words, when you said, "There were no wars in Europe since ww2 until [1993]", you were in fact completely talking out your arse
Ok, there were no major wars between the end of the 2nd world war and the formation of the EU. Happy now?
It was just a casual comment mate, get over yourself
I really hope you can recognise that 1992 is actually before 1993
Lol, are you for real? The Maastricht treaty was signed in 1992 you fucking retard.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maastricht_Treaty
Maybe look at the date it took effect and actually formed the EU
Also, to quote a mysterious someone from further up the thread: "The EU was created in 1993."
Lol. I don't give a shit mate. It was a throwaway comment joking about how there were no major wars until the EU was formed.
Correlation is not causation, it's not that deep.
This is the most comically disingenuous thing I have ever seen. "Draw your own conclusions" fuckin sure lmao
you thought I was being serious? LOL
Sure looked like it. Sure looks like you've been proved definitively wrong and now you're like iT wAs OnLy A jOkE bRo. You sure look like a bad faith commenter who can't admit they're wrong, or "twat" if you want to use the shorthand.
You think I think the Bosnian war was caused by the signing of the Maastricht treaty? That's what you think?
Have you been near a lot of lead paint in your life?
Whether you actually believe it or not, you're arguing strenuously for it to advance your political position. It doesn't really matter if it's genuine, the effect is the same
Also I've seen enough of your comments elsewhere to know that you hate the EU enough that it's a plausible position for you to try to take
No I'm not lol. The only argument was that Bosnia was the first major war in Europe since 1945. It happening in 1992 is pure coincidence. To think other wise is pretty fucking stupid. But I guess that's your level.
Your feeble downvoting of all my comments is fucking hilarious mate. This isn't Reddit you mong.
okay lmao
I'm downvoting you for lying and being a dickhead. I can also see you upvoting your own comments. Is there a bit of insecurity about upvotes there, maybe?
It's obviously a snarky comment retard.
I can't upvote my own comments you bellend