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on dividing the left
(hexbear.net)
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this post was submitted on 17 Sep 2023
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chapotraphouse
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Wtf you can get comments removed for being "too class reductionist" as a racial minority on this site? I guess my opinion as a black person that wants workers solidarity and because im not a black nationalists doesn't fit with the narratives of the mods here. Lame site. I'm out.
There was a second comment that was removed as well further down the chain.
it seems that I totally had his number too. saying "intersectionality is economically challenged" - idk how this is even a discussion it's classic stupidpol
To elaborate on this, I think ideologically your ideas of intersectionaility will become challenged under worsened material conditions, let alone violence. I think intersectionaility is sign of a privileged society that has worked passed the needs of survival. I mean using slavery in the US as an example, abolitionists weren't necessarily concerned about Mexican independence. Not that, that wasnt important, it just wasn't needed for survival, in that moment. I do agree that we are not at a point of survival and for the record I heavily support intersectionaility and liberation for all oppressed peoples. So I do agree with you that this space needs to be inclusionary. I'm looking to learn as much about the groups here too.
I'm of course speaking of a hypothetical that doesn't apply. My opinion is that I have a duty to my fellow humanity to abolish capitalism before a duty to my identity.
Please don't hate me for saying this, I'm new here so feel free to educate me on your perspective.
Thanks for that. I'll look into what a patsoc is. Are they bad for just being assholes or is it more of an ideological issue?
"Patriotic socialist" is someone who combines false consciousness nationalist populism with non intersectional and exclusionary class politics. Like "dictatorship of the proletariat" but then will define the proletariat very narrowly and chauvinistically. Its a common grift. Socialism wrapped in an american flag (and all that it entails).
So I looked this up and from what I saw, they label the CCP this. Is that just western propaganda or is that kinda true?
I would say no. Patriotic Socialism is more like the movement that inspired the Nazis to add "socialism" to their name. The CCP has a nationalistic quality, like you have to be born in China to hold positions in the party, but for example there is proportional representation, they really make sure their minority populations are properly represented in the government and party. Patsocs try to use the contradictions that arise as a result of trying to reform a nation, and movements that push for progressive reforms for all, to make it into progressive reforms for some, if not completely derailing any progressive agenda. Sometimes patsocs will make appeals to the nationalist character of China or Cuba to argue for patriotic socialism, but I've never seen it argued for in good faith. People are either confused or lying, regardless of what anyone thinks about the CCP, they helped the Chinese people organize and defend themselves. No patsoc movement has ever come within 1000 miles of relevance, let alone victory (unless you count Nazis which wouldn't be a victory for progress!)
So why do people equate patsoc with class reduction? Tell me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like patsocs are using socialist ideology/esthetic to rally around some sort of nationality/ethnicity/race, wouldn't a class reductionist be the opposite of that?
That's a really interesting way of looking at it! I think that the reason they get equated is that the material effect had been historically the same. Patsocs advocate for socialist policies, but ideologically restrict who does and doesn't get the benefit. Class reductionists advocate for socialist policies for all, but when the time comes to redistribute wealth, geez you know we really tried. So like the american socialist movements of the early 20th century, moved popular support for socialism all the way to a New deal. But Black workers were excluded from union membership or any of the benefits of the new deal, until the UAW started admitting black workers in Detroit decades later. So even though the messaging was completely different, the historical effect was the same. If workers have the power to demand truly transformative reforms, like new deal policies, then we have to actually push beyond that because the ruling class is never going to let it go down the way we know it has to. They will always fight back with extreme violence. Anything we win has to be defended and we can only defend it if everyone is on board to defend it, and not everyone will be on board if it leaves most people out. Maybe it wins temporary concessions for some, but we are communists, dammit! It's all or we fighting. Its not enough for the workers to be united. We have to be united in struggle, or we will never get there. At least that's what I think.
You're describing patsocs in the 20th century not class reductionist, so I don't believe those historical examples mean those beliefs have the same outcome. If they were solely basing policy on class, black workers would have been admitted solely on the merits of being working class. I think that's where we disagree.
I would say any historical context of exclusion based on race is the exact opposite of a class reductionist because they reduced their beliefs upon a racial identity first. Unless I'm unaware of the party in your example explicitly stating they were class reductionist, I don't believe those to be same thing. The only reason why, even as a black person, I have this line of thinking is because I've seen how effective these so called "concessions" have been to my community. They haven't. Being politically emancipated within this bourgeois, capitalist electorate hasn't done much more than made us feel betrayed, and angry. And I believe race, sex, gender, etc are such weak positions to argue leftism from. I know more and more black people (mostly men) supporting right wing ideology and something close to 40 percent of women (albeit within in the American context) vote for the further right wing party. That is what I hope people understand. Being apart of a marginalized group doesn't mean you're naturally apart of a centralized group, with any sort of political consensus. This is not the same thing as saying "the black situation is unimportant or doesnt need to talked about", it's saying "not all black people are or ever will be leftists/comrades so stop addressing the issue as if we are all political monolith".
I mean that's the challenge, to turn our correct principles into political reality. The left needs people to take the lead, to think differently about old dusty problems, and communicate and discuss and educate. Nothing is easy or straightforward, but its good to have comrades and work for the people
100 percent man. Thanks for the conversation. I have a much better outlook of this site. Probably not the best choice to jump into for my first thread lol.
~~This you?~~
EDIT: My bad.
Yes, did you not read the rest? I'd rather a white socialist than a lip service white lib lol. Was this a gotcha? I'll just stick to my irl black armed self defense group (that also has white people in it) because this place is just too weird. I was recommended it as an alternative to reddit but it doesn't seem much different.
~~All I recall is you being class reductionist, acting like intersectionality wasn't an important part of the revolutionary struggle, and calling minority rights individualism. And don't forget, you're not the only minority here, you don't speak for the rest of us.~~
EDIT: Yeah, upon rereading, I totally misinterpreted what you said. Just got a hair trigger from the current struggle session I guess. This one's on me, comrade. My bad.
I'm not saying I did. It's an opinion that black people have nonetheless. Many people I know care about the economic/modern day enslavement conditions much more than the political empowerment in a capitalistic society. As you are seeing, a black identity doesn't mean a monolithic one and I'm saying an identity like ours may not create as strong solidarity as you think. Don't forget, you don't speak for the rest of us either.
Tbh, I think maybe we're speaking past each other, because these comments are something I can absolutely understand. Maybe I misunderstood your previous comments, because to me, they came off extremely class reductionist and dismissive of other marginalized people's struggles. I'm sorry, comrade.
Oh... I'm sorry too. I think this is my fault for not articulating myself well, so please don't apologize. After re-reading what I typed, it was more confrontational than I intended. Maybe I'm too used to reddit (I'm told you guys call it storefront. That's awesome and so well deserved) so I haven't gotten used to these good faith conversations. Sorry again .
No worries! I can definitely relate to not articulating myself well. It definitely takes some getting used to coming from the lib hell that is
lol. And I came in immediately with snark myself, so it's not just on you.
I hope you stay around because I see your perspective, and I think if you wait and let hexbears have a struggle sesh then they will be able to see it too. Because as a cishet white guy, it was actually really important for me to get to the line that these other commenters keep repeating: that the place where workers feel the effects of of their economic exploitation is usually some social distinction like race/gender/ethnicity/expression. I also believe that capital and value are real and temporal, condensed laboring time of workers, and if I understand all of this correctly, a huge amount of the cultural and social capital, basically anything new, or persisting from slavery and indigenous dispossession and genocide, as well as everything in between (carcerial and police repression, extreme exploitation of demonized immigrants), is composed disproportionately of the value of the toil, extracted through extreme violence, of BIPoC around the world.
OTOH, I don't relate to black comrades as a racialized social relation. We are all volunteers so the people who are working together are there because they got their ass out to work together to get something done, or aid in people's struggles, or plan and even just bullshit in off time.
It seems like there is what leftist believe that certain positions on race "need to" or are "supposed to" be, because of the compound legacies of imperialism and colonialism and patriarchy, etc., especially with regards to whites like me, but those positions can end up flattening the lived experience of people into a collection of historical figures and facts, an object instead of a person. But what this disconnect is, what it is called for example, if it exists, idk if there's a name for it. So like so many problems, people disagree over things they don't have the language to understand yet.
Anyway, I appreciate your comments, comrade. Thanks.
Imma keep it real with it you man, the vibe I get from some people here is that none of us should be set free unless we're all in the house first. I know that's not the best way of saying it or even if it's true. If this comment is out of bounds go ahead and remove it, but I hope to stick around and learn.
We all have a ton of issues to work through, I hope you will be patient with us as I genuinely think HBs are acting in good faith! But we are all developing in different ways and at different rates. I'm sure you're able to recognize some ways in which you could become a better comrade, and part of that is by interacting principally with other principled politicized workers.
Unfortunately, in my organizing I have not yet encountered the movement that will stand a chance against imperialism. So until I find it or it finds me, I have to try to build it, out of the paved over wasteland of the american labor movement. It takes more patience and personal development than I ever anticipated. But at least I know I'm not completely alone. Our only hope is in each other, in solidarity. Hopelessness is to lose sight of that.
Anyway, thanks for your patience and strength. Sticking with it helps us to recognize and confront issues we encounter with other comrades. Sometimes it seems like we are the only ones who see a real problem with the way others approach problems that crop up as a result of left organizing and, while it could be a sign that we just aren't compatible with a group's beliefs, it could also be a sign that we are just a little ahead of our comrades in certain areas, and we can bring them up to speed and strengthen the movement in doing so.
In other words, quantitative inputs over time add up to great qualitative change. It can be slow process but we have to believe it to be successful, as every successful socialist movement has recognized the political effectiveness of dialectical change
I mean I've learned a lot already and everyone here is so nice it was hard to believe. Thanks for all of information.