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There is a big narrative that loves to pick off the left-est of the left people in the US government, and come up with various bullshit reasons to criticize them. You'll see a bunch of them down below in this thread, being negative about Bernie.
You'll never hear this kind of argument applied anywhere else. Like, if Beto O'Rourke said Gaza was a genocide, you wouldn't see all these Lemmy comments saying "TOOK YOU FUCKING LONG ENOUGH YOU PIECE OF SHIT" or whatever. When that handful of countries said they wouldn't do sporting events with Israel, I didn't see anyone commenting "YEAH WHERE WAS THIS TWO YEARS AGO WHERE ARE THE FUCKING WAR CRIMES CHARGES" or anything like that. The extensive nitpicking is only aimed at people like AOC and Bernie who are significant leftist voices in government.
If you want to know what Bernie's been actually saying about Gaza, this is it:
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/uVDPXtnTXUw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFhcSlrJcAU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dd4cg-t8j8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2_AWLQ4gk4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBZreokpA_s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRrHfsqg990
And so on. He's been doing what most of Lemmy would like to see someone in the US Congress doing: Yelling about Israel, what a fucking horror it is, and trying to stop US military aid. This extensive nailbiting about him calling it "ethnic cleansing" instead of "genocide" is just going to get smoothly replaced by these users with some other reason to nailbite about him, definitely not with any enthusiasm or support for him. I guarantee it.
Yeah, pretty much.
Also:
Political alliances are bad because they would mean actually taking action. It’s much more comfortable to just sit around, criticize, and preach your moral superiority.
In particular, if you're criticizing Bernie Sanders because he's not awesome enough, then that means you must be so awesome you're on a whole nother level. And if anyone disagrees, it just means they're not awesome, it actually proves your whole point. Job done.
I’m not convinced the most extreme comments you see online seeking to split up leftists are in good faith. It’s relatively easy for people committing espionage to pretend to be leftists, push their agenda, and then seek to divide and conquer.
I’m not saying there aren’t real people out there saying these things, but I do believe many of them have bought the narrative of bad faith actors that were disguised among them.
The same exact thing happens on the right, but it’s more so just spamming their bad faith rhetoric with bots in their case. Since their goal is just to convince the least checked-in person to disengage or believe their side a bit more by seeing their side first.
Yeah, absolutely.
https://sh.itjust.works/comment/21079358
This fuckin' dingbat I can't even
Edit: So maybe I'm fooling myself, but I do feel like I've gotten a little bit capable with spotting which ones of them are the deliberate disruptors as opposed to people who got fooled by them and are echoing. The major tells of the totally fake accounts are:
That is my short maybe-totally-wrong field guide to identifying the bad accounts on Lemmy. Not 100%, your mileage may vary, I have no real idea but this is what I've observed and guessed at.
You were wondering why people weren't reacting the same to Eurovision contestants calling it a genocide as with Bernie Sanders, which I felt was kind of an odd comparison.
Which
One
Was
Your
Favorite
You never told me...
The UN just called it one, Bernie has cover to do it now. His situation changed, so did his actions.
People get mad at Bernie because they expect better and are disappointed it took so long. No one expects better of Beto.
But even so-
-you absolutely woud lol
Furthermore, the label of genocide comes with some geo-political ramifications.
Or rather, it was supposed to.
Then you must not have been paying attention, because that was everywhere here
https://lemmy.world/post/35806638
I literally don't see even a single comment saying that the Netherlands is bad for not having done this previously. Let alone anything like this or this.
I get you're trying to run interference over criticism of Bernie, a sitting U.S. senator, but Eurovision hasn't been voting to send weapons to Israel.
There's been many votes and resolutions on Gaza that Bernie was involved in where people were hoping for him to make a stance he hasn't until now.
Eurovision participants? Not so much.
Even Beto, who is an out-of-office former house representative hasn't been in that position. He was last in office in 2019.
Expectations are way different in these situations.
Yes! I can't tell you how many times he has voted to send weapons to Israel. Literally every single time. It is known!
Which one was your favorite? Which time did he vote for weapons to Israel that wasn't some wild mischaracterization like "his vigorous attempt to stop sending weapons to Israel doesn't count because actually it means he was in favor of all the other times we sent weapons to Israel (which he also vigorously opposed)"? Which bill and what did he vote for that was sending weapons to Israel? This definitely isn't a bunch of nonsense so I'd love to hear more.
(YouTube videos "people were hoping for him to make a stand" get the fuck out of here lol)
He voted for the most recent Iron Dome package. I guess you probably excuse his votes before Oct 7th because it was before this recent phase of the genocide, but the genocide didn't start on Oct 7th
The contradictions are sharper now, but Israel has been a genocidal settler colony since it was founded.
I feel like you missed the 'sitting U.S. Senator' vs 'Eurovision' point to peoples reactions and expectations?
Which one was your favorite? Which time that Bernie Sanders voted to send weapons to Israel? I can't wait to hear! Don't leave me hanging! I really wanted to hear.
I mean you're right to call me out on that other thing. I definitely remember the time when someone at Eurovision got up and did this, it was right between Spain and Portugal. I do agree, it would be wonderful if someone would do something like that in the US Senate, not just at Eurovision. It's honestly shameful that Bernie Sanders never did anything like that when Eurovision has been running commercials like this. Honestly, you're right, and I feel bad for ever doubting your insight here.
I cannot honestly parse this gish.
Does that way of explaining it make sense?
You do realize it wasn't about Bernie's positions? It was just that him being a US senator enjoins a different level of scrutiny, for reasons such as: Congress funds Israel's military and Eurovision does not. (Or as far as I know.)
People saw his opposition to funding weapons and wanted him to call it a genocide, which he hadn't until today. Hence, expectations and the 'finally' sentiment being expressed.
I don't know why you're on this refrain of asking about my 'favorite time'.
Totally, totally. So when did he vote to send weapons to Israel?
He has focused more of his time criticising the Nentayahu government specifically, rather than the fundamental concept of running a settler colony. He has only recently starting naming the full israeli government. He still believes in sending weapons, aid and trade to the occupation ensuring the continued murder of the Palestinians can continue.
Because ultimately Bernie still supports the conditions that will continue the genocide. He is still a liberal zionist. He will still buy a beachfront property in Gaza once it is cleansed but I guess its ok if he cries the entire time.
Watch the YouTube videos I posted where he is repeatedly introducing bills to stop ensuring exactly that, and yelling with pictures on the floor of the Senate about how important it is.
You're talking pure shit.
No, his bills were always weasely with what restrictions they placed. They always had easy to reach exceptions that continued the flow of trade to the occupation. They always allowed more Americans to settler in the land and steal homes from the Palestinians.
Bernie never truly has taken an anti-zionist position. He always ultimately props up the settler state. Even in his latest speech he blames the resistance.
Whee look at the goalposts go
Everyone knows if you're going to get a bill passed in the US Senate, the best thing you can do is include something in them where individuals can't trade with Israel anymore. Like Cuba. Just cutting off the flow of military aid would be useless and not accomplish anything, unless we included that totally possible and sensible step in addition, and then asked all the senators to vote on it.
I am honestly a little bit surprised to see so many people eager to jump up and provide examples of the type of bad faith argument I was talking about in my original comment.
Why are you making up what I said?
Failing to call it a genocide in 77 years is not moving a goalpost. Its basic human decency
Bad faith is what Bernie has done, always blaming Nentanyahu, continuing the flow of any arms, trade and people to the settler state.
Ah yes, who could forget that time he fought to continue the flow of any arms, trade, and people to the settler state. Which bill was that that he supported? What was the exception carved out, how was it carved out? Clearly I'm super clueless on this topic, what year did he introduce the bill? I want to know, maybe you can help me understand. I know there must have been hundreds if not thousands that he introduced, so just focus on one. Tell me.
https://x.com/anna_bahr/status/1950335108864479631
"Offensive" arms only.
Surprisingly enough, a one-sentence Twitter link has led you astray!
https://www.commondreams.org/news/sanders-force-vote-israel-weapons-sales
https://www.congress.gov/bill/119th-congress/senate-joint-resolution/34/text
The bill blocks a particular sale by Trump of weapons to Israel. It's not just offensive weapons, it's a specific list of weapons (everything in Trump's attempt) plus some US military support services "and other related elements of logistics and program support." What's carved out of it? It looks to me like it's blocking literally the entire sale.
I am done with this exchange, it is abundantly clear that you're happy to continue talking bollocks for as long as I'm willing to respond to you. It's been educational though! Like I say, I'm a little bit surprised that people popped up to do exactly what I described in the original comment, and also in a particularly ham-handed manner that makes it pretty obvious that they're just casting around for reasons to shit on Sanders.
Bernie's communication director lied? That sounds like a bad thing to do given they could be complicit in genocide.
So only offensive weapons then...
Carved out is the absence of Bernie blocking the iron dome missiles that israel uses to act with impunity... Bernie would never touch them since the existence of the occupation is necessary in his mind.
Yes yes please continue, I'm totally listening
You got the one example you wanted and you want to duck out already?
You don't get to make a massive post shaming people for criticising a politician and then get upset when people respond.
Don't go
I'll give you two upvotes, see if you can find the surprise in the YouTube videos, I am waiting
Don't give up now
Hey wait, don't go. So there's a prize hidden in one of those YouTube videos: Bernie Sanders says something about AIPAC. What does he have to say about it? I'll give you an upvote if you can find it and tell me.
I'm sorry your liberal zionist has been exposed, but when you said you were done with the exchange its weird to come back to it.
Three upvotes, final offer
Totally
What a stupid take. Beto O'Rourke isn't portraid as a civil rights champion or a leftist, he's just a democrat. Bernie was supposed to be more, he's supposed to be the (democratic) socialist, the left, and he's supposedly a champion of human rights.
Except for Palestine. He reminisced his beautiful Kibbutz during an active genocide to justify it, completely ignoring his hypocrisy of building such a community by brutally stealing Palestinian land.
We don't expect Beto to say anything, we had higher expectations for Bernie. He and AOC have let us down in our time of greatest need.
Except for Palestine. They are loud and proud about all their support for human rights and fighting for everyone, except for Palestine.
Bernie will finally call it a genocide, but he'll go with the shifting tide of blaming Netanyahu. He won't admit that there's something fundamentally wrong with a religious ethno supremacist genocidal state and that the rot comes from deep within society, because his priority will be to save Jewish ISIS.
Free Palestine, from the river to the sea. Let me know when he says that.
I feel like there are a whole bunch of YouTube links up in the parent comment that you need to watch
Here we go, everyone.
This is what OP is talking about