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But if we vote/advocate third parties, or converse in conservative spaces or .ML, .Lemmygrad*, on Lemmy, we're trolls or shills. 🤮
This is the time for third parties. I get why people were saying not to talk about them during the election but now is the time because it’s obvious that the Dems continue to not have a spine.
It was obvious every election cycle since FDR too. It's past time for us to stop crossing oceans and moving mountains for those who won't jump a puddle or molehill for us. Politicians, I mean. I'll still cast my vote to help the "sane liberals", conservatives, and marxists who would let me starve in the streets or drop dead in the fields while harvesting their food, or in their bathroom I may be cleaning at the time.
Not committing self harm isn't equivalent to Moving Mountains etc. This is the whole problem with that standpoint. Yes the genocides that the United States Russia and China are committing are inexcusable. They were also not actually on the ballot. There was no one who stood a chance of getting elected that was going to make those better. But there was one that vowed to make things worse. And they won. Like many of us said they would. There is no single one group that deserves credit for that victory. But the margin of votes was with in single digit percentage. It wasn't moving a mountain.
I'm not here to accuse you of being happy with the outcome. But can you admit that you might have been taken advantage of. That your sincere Ernest desire to see things fixed may have been manipulated and taken advantage of to your own detriment and the determent of people you care about. Because I can tell you 100% that fascists, leninists, and other groups absolutely we're stirring the pot. Not caring about who got hurt.
I have no problem with anyone talking to them and trying to de program any of those groups. What I do have a problem with, are people repeating propaganda and being manipulated by these groups to get everyone hurt. We are here.
As an anarchist I wish to see all national parties disbanded and abolished. Democrat, republican, green, libertarian, vanguard. And you're not wrong that a lot of this has been going on since and including FDR. He should have actually tried and hung everyone found guilty of being involved with the business plot. Instead of making backroom deals to get Social Security Etc passed. Something which the people he spared set about immediately after it's passage, gutting it.
The sad thing is, that Democrats deny their role in the failure, just as many of the so-called people on the left who spent so much time attacking them. But as they say success has many fathers, while failure is a bastard.
You’re only worried about the immediate future. Which, yes, is bad. But many refusing to vote for the DNC are doing so because they’re complicit in enabling this bullshit political atmosphere where people are so tired of bullshit politicians who do shit like break a record to “stand up to trump” and then vote to confirm his appointee. So they either give up on voting altogether or are willing to vote for a literal dictator and the DNC’s response is to fight harder against progressives than it does trump. Then in response to losing runs someone whose message is “nothing will fundamentally change.”
So, yeah, if people had completely abandoned the DNC like they should have, maybe we wouldn’t have ever seen it get this bad. But they’re happy with it this bad. They get to pretend they care and keep making money. So yeah, there are plenty of people who refuse to vote for them because they’re happily helping to destroy democracy. (Including suing to remove 3rd parties from ballots, yay!)
Are you implying that the kidnappings torture and persecution are only short-term? Do you not understand that we will have to win back our basic rights at this point. Not just for our immigrant friends and family, but all minorities? That seems a really obtuse and uninformed viewpoint. Which I'm hoping it's just a misunderstanding on my part. And that that's not your actual stance. This shit is serious and not short-term. We will be suffering this for Generations.
I mean unless you have some Surefire non-vanguardist radical action in your pocket or something.
Literally just said I know it’s bad. Not implying it isn’t. I’m saying the DNC has been actively working towards this even being possible for years. Because they only need to run hitler -$50. And they’re happy with that. They would rather lose to Trump than lose any money. And that’s why people stop voting. And that’s why Trump is fucking even possible.
I’m just fucking tired of people defending the DNC. They’re just as big of a part of the problem as republicans.
The voters are as much to blame as the dnc. Stop trying to push all the blame on to them. So which is it and be clear. Am i only concerned about short-term shit. Or is this shit meaningful and you're just flip-flopping wildly. Twisting in the wind trying to pin everything on Democrats and nothing on you or anyone else like you.
I can say you’re only concerned with short term and willing to lose the long term, while also saying I understand the short term is fucking terrible and it suck’s but it’s only going to get worse if people keep supporting the parties that got us here and are happy to be here. Because people have been saying this shit for like 50 years… and here we are, at it being worse.
The DNC’s literal job is to motivate and energize voters. Blaming the voters and not the DNC is like yelling at a Taco Bell employee about them removing potato’s from the menu as if the fucking cashier has any say what corporate does.
The DNC shouldn't exist. Democrats job is to legislate. Not excite or energize anyone. Politics isn't supposed to be life or death or exciting. It's supposed to be banal and boring. The more boring the better.
And it's freaking hilarious to watch you still flailing. You already admitted you voted for Harris just as I and many other people like myself. Yet you defend the sensationalist one-sided coverage and people pushing it against Harris.
If you've got this long-term plan let's hear it. If I was a betting man my money would be on you don't have anything other than the boiler plate.
And look I'll even go first. My long-term plan is to end the relevance of national parties. To work with them only as long as we must to keep Republicans and outright fascists from office, due to current realities. While getting people elected to change those realities. They are not our friends but the unfortunate truth is we need each other. Further we need to work on not being so gullible as to amplify the propaganda of our enemies. Regardless of who they are. Your turn. Got anything besides accelerationism?
I assume you’re confusing me with someone else? I did not say I voted for Harris.
People who want to get elected’s job is to get people to want to vote for them. A national party then is supposed to… be a party people want to vote for.
Anyways, the long term plan is mostly, remove money & attack ads from politics, including post political job bullshit. Stop first past the post. Educate people well. Including on the internet and computers (we REALLY need good legislation on it but without people actually understanding it… that’s not easy) Get people to actually care about their own communities, and get involved, including in politics, school boards, etc. (And well, plenty of other things to change, much I have not sat down and formalized a plan for it because there’s not much point in fantasizing a world that’s not trying to destroy itself for profit. Mostly what I can do as a teacher… which also involves a lot of pushing my school to offer things. ) But the DNC is actively against a lot of that. Voting for them will not fix it.
And yet, the 3rd parties themselves don't seem to do anything until the Presidential election year. If they were serious, they'd be out there now, putting up candidates in the much-easier-to-win midterms, talking about how they're really different from the entrenched parties. They don't. They only come out of the woodwork and put up spoiler candidates for President.
Absolutely agreed. And I'm not sure the better alternative to Reddit is a "federated" platform where the mods highest priority seems to delete comments that call the Democrats what they are: nice Nazis.
Blue MAGA
Yet I keep hearing from y'all (world users) "wahhhhh we need to blindly back the Democrats" and "When the dems elect someone significantly more right than Kamala like Shapiro or Fetterman we need to blindly vote for them".
Exactly! The time for third parties is between elections. 😜
Yep! Lemmy loves to complain about the Democratic party, but as soon as ya mention third-party, you're banned from everywhere for being a troll. Or Lemmy's other fav insults: Nazi and Fascist. They'll even say we're paid to talk about third parties.
At this point, Lemmy is getting what they deserve. They'll lost next presidential election to if they don't wake the fuck up. :)
Lemmy: The time has come for a new third party! One made up of honest working class people, with infinity time and money between elections to campaign starting now. Oh also you need to go from 0% to 51% in one election cycle or just scrap the whole thing.
So how many election cycles do we give them? Serious question.
Look at the Green Party as a prime example:
1996 - 0.71%
2000 - 2.74%
2004 - 0.10%
2008 - 0.12%
2012 - 0.36%
2016 - 1.07%
2020 - 0.26%
2024 - 0.56%
29 years, 8 general elections, 0 electoral college votes. Zero.
To put that in perspective, more electoral college votes have been awarded by ACCIDENT (2004), than have been won total by the Green party in 29 years.
More electoral college votes have been awarded by faithless electors (2016) than have been won by the Green party.
Their best run was with Nader in 2000 and even that did not move the needle.
I can't imagine why there should be a limit. What happens when we reach it?
Why on earth did he reply to your 5 month old comment? Weird.
If a third party can't win an election in nearly 30 years, it's not really an alternative to anything. Time to let it go.
Let it go and do what? The plan that has won over the last 30 years was the fascist one.
You let the Green party go. They can't get 1% of the vote, haven't won an election in any state, it's past time to give up the illusion that they are a real party.
It sounds like they've been pretty insignificant. Which better idea has worked well over the last 30 years?
Taking over a major party by challenging center candidates in primaries and winning in the general elections.
See the Tea Party / Red Hat takeover of the Republican party.
Progressives need to do the same to the Democrats.
Why didn't they try that sooner?
Not yet...
Primaries are where you fall in love, the General election is where you fall in line unless you want the opposition to win.
The folks I banned here weren't honestly advocating third party, they were conservatives attempting to split the Democratic vote.
Once the mask came off they were banned. I probably gave them more rope than I should have.
Guillotine Party. A Democratic version of the Tea Party. Don't promote a third party; replace the current one from the inside out.
Promote electoral reform. Something we can do one state at a time.
Its not electoral reform or state action that we need. Its the DNC. Their policies and positions support the billionaire Problem Class. The Guillotine Party needs to decapitate the billionaire class and their political lapdogs in the Democratic party.
The funny part is that this is an actual centrist position: there is broad bipartisan support for attacking the oligarchs. If the Democrats would actually go after them, the GOP would have to do the same. We would end up with two parties focused on class warfare instead of none.
When have people (outside isolated trolls) accused 3rd-party advocates of being shills? If the "Tanky Triad" only supported an end to "first-past-the-post" voting, that would be one thing. But when I visit, I'm inundated with propaganda championing fascists who want to ignore reality and bend the population to their will. That's not liberalism, and it's certainly not Progressive Politics...
Take a look at some older posts from before the election. It was a fucking witchhunt on third-party advocates. Every single one was accused of being a paid russian shill. Every. Single. One. lol
When I am accused of such things, I tend to doxx myself as Yevgeny Prigozhin. Claiming to be a primary source within Wagner has its uses.
~~I'm not even sure if you're joking or not, but you do know he's dead, right?~~
Edit: Nvm, you're joking.
Of course. It is a closely guarded Russian secret that I escaped by parachute. The mighty Putin went through great effort to fake my death.
That's how extreme some Lemmy's were for sure! lol
Do you have some examples? Like I said, all I experienced was disingenuous comments.
EDIT: My bad, I thought we were talking about people (plural) advocating against 3rd-party candidates in general. I still haven't seen that. But yeah, Jill Stein is sus as fuck. You're allowed to think otherwise, but pointing that out doesn't make someone a shill.
So... Still no sources. Not one...
EDIT: If you don't think Jill Stein is a Russian asset after reading all the credible allegations, I don't know what to tell you. Of course you're allowed your opinion, but that's still not evidence of people saying 3rd-party candidates in general are bad.
Aside from Jill Fucking Stein, I still don't see evidence that wide swaths of people were advocating against 3rd parties in general. Yeah, there are definitely credible allegations against her, and both Putin and the GOP absolutely took advantage of her spoiler status in the election. Maybe you think she sat at the table with Putin himself without knowledge of him using her?
https://beehaw.org/post/19739290 sorry, I originally thought your comment was itt. ^