Alternatively, some of the best episodes of TNG were "bottle" episodes to fill space and keep costs down. If 90s trek had shorter seasons would we have had "Measure of a Man" ,"Duet", or "Masks" made?
I know the days of a 24 episode season are long gone due to the increase of production time in modern TV, but maybe we could have 13 to 15 episodes ? Enough for a 10 episode dedicated season arc with a few others just to explore some weird anomalies that make no sense at all.
I said pretty much the same in a comment above, but I'm not against filler, or bottle episodes, though I may have come off that way. I'm just against bad filler, stuff that would have never made it into a show if there was no predetermined season lengths. In a perfect world, it would be great if stories could be chosen simply because they were great stories. I'd like to know that something like the Fly episode of Breaking Bad would could still be filmed just because the show runners thought it was a great story, and not because they had a make a certain number of episodes and needed to save some money on one episode so they could spend more on another.
Honestly, I think there should be some really corny/goofy "what were they thinking" clunker episodes. Not lazy writing that disregards established character traits or contradicts itself or anything, but something they try that doesn't work, but they tried in earnest and it shows.
Something that reminds you of the participatory nature of suspension of disbelief.
Longer seasons would allow them to throw in a few SciFi oriented episodes that don't necessarily advance character arcs. Where would SNW be if TOS didn't have the "Arena" (Gorn) episode that was based on a completely unrelated SciFi short story?
Mirror, Mirror was a SciFi episode that not only gave us the foundation for Discovery, but cemented the evil-twin-goatee trope into pupular culture.
Space Seed (Botany Bay/Khan) was also a one-off SciFi episode. Where would the entire franchise be without it?
I really hope SNW makes room for exploring the sort of SciFi ideas that Star Trek was originally based on.
SNW has been pretty good with the standalone episodes though, no? Maybe leaning a little more on the comedy and hijinks than the sci-fi this season but they don’t seem too afraid of treating an episode as a mini movie in its own right.
I wouldn’t mind a few more episodes anyway, but 20 does feel like too much. And honestly I’m not unhappy with 10 either, particularly considering the quality of them and that it’s not the only Trek in town. 10 episodes of this show, but there’s like three or four other shows too. We’re not at a loss for Trek.
Part of the reason why TNG was good beyond the first couple seasons was because of the open script submission policy that's no longer in existence. According to ex-Trek producer Ronald D. Moore, they were reading something like 3000 scripts a year. It allowed them to be choosy (though there were still some stinkers). Now that the characters are established, if the seasons were longer, it might be cool to see the open script submissions come back (though, as I'm typing this, maybe implementing this during or shortly after a writers strike would be a poor choice, even though there were limits to how many scripts one could submit before going through "official" channels). Anyway, one could argue that a huge amount of ideas need to be generated for a show as great as TNG to exist, more than a small group of writers could produce. If outside script admissions were allowed, I'm sure we'd see some great sci-fi episodes from writers who weren't even thinking "Star Trek" as they wrote them.
I'm not against filler, and my post may have come off as being that way. Not every story has to advance character or advance some storyline. I'm just against bad filler.
Just a fun note: Ron Moore got his start through that open submissions policy when submitted a script for what became "The Bonding." He had no writing credits before that.
Several of the Relaunch novelverse TrekLit authors tried out with spec scripts before being picked up to write tie-in fiction.
David Mack, a film school grad, got script credits for 2 DS9 episodes, Starship Down and Only a Paper Moon before being contracted for some Starfleet Core of Engineers stories.
Kirsten Beyer, a theatre grad, never got into one of the shows with a spec script, but was picked up to write Voyager books, then came full circle to be in the writers rooms on all the new live-action shows.
Wow thanks, that really explains well why the modern shows respect (at least some of) "beta canon" more than what I would expect. A natural consequence when some of the authors sit in the writer's room :)
David Mack was more recently a consultant for the development and first seasons of both Lower Decks and Prodigy as well. I believe we can thank him for bringing Peter David’s Brikar aliens (from the YA Starfleet Academy and the New Frontier books) into onscreen canon with the character of Rok Tahk in Prodigy.
Man, if they opened up script submissions, they'd probably be able to reap a LOT of fanfic-grown talent out there. Yeah, the slush pile would SUCK because it's much easier to submit online than in the days of snail mail and paper, but we've had about 20 years of really explosive writing growth with the advent of fanfic online and as far as I know nobody's really "mentoring" those people in this day and age.
I know people laugh and snort at fanfic, but writing is writing is writing . You'd do as well to laugh at painters who sketch bowls of fruit or sketch nudes from live subjects (as if people haven't drawn those things for literal centuries!). It doesn't really matter WHERE you practice and learn so long as you do it, and if fanfic/fanart/whatever gets you going, that's how you're going to grow your talent, by practicing over and over.
And some people get really damn good at it. If Trek opened up script submissions again, it'd open the doors to a new generation of writers kicking their careers off.
I've been rewatching TNG and it has become very, very apparent to me how much of the charm of the show was due to two things:
The sheer chemistry of the cast. Since really learning how much they all loved each other, it really just feels like a ship of joy.
The filler episodes let you spend time with the cast. I mean, you rarely get something like a whole scene about Data painting, or stroking a fake beard, or Geordi striking out with multiple women, or Troi extolling the virtues of chocolate sundaes.
I've been really impressed by how much SNW has been able to do with the ensemble, it really feels like the cast have relationships, so if we can get more of that, yes please!
I almost want to believe that they're cancelling Discovery to give more resources to SNW's production schedule. ;)
20 seems unrealistic given the longer shooting time per episode and actors’ wanting flexibility to be able to work on more than one project.
12-15 however seems very possible especially with the episodic format. Producing a longer season after the strike especially would seem wise. It would also allow Paramount to take a brief hiatus midseason (the way Discovery did originally) to stretch out the schedule.
SNW has already demonstrated that it is an ensemble show with a full cast that can basically carry or star in their own episodes. Not every main cast member needs to be on set every production day, and even the principal character, Pike, can step back in some episodes.
Hey, with more episodes we might have gotten a proper Ortegas episode...
It’s likely the impact of the sudden and unexpected death of Melissa Navia’s husband led to a lightning of her role in the second season.
She’s written about how hard it was for her to go into production just a couple of months after that. She was a musical theatre performer as a child, so it’s likely that a larger singing role was planned for her in 2 x 09. We can be thankful that she has apparently decided to stick with her career after some profound doubts in 2022.
I hope Melissa continues to find the fandom to be a source of surrogate family. It was nice to see the fandom's outpouring of empathy and support after her tragic loss. It's not the same, but since it seems to have given her some comfort, I hope that dynamic can be something special for her for a long time.
:(
But we had her episode. We know her name is Erica Ortegas and that she flies the ship. What else do we need?
Next Generation was your favorite, and it had 24 episode seasons. Episode count and quality are not necessarily linked.
TNG was great, and the best episodes are incredible, but most episodes were fairly mediocre. I feel SNW's average is higher, and it's probably in part for having LESS than half the number of episodes per season.
I think they'd be fine with 12, maybe even 14, but beyond that I don't they could keep it as great as it's been.
@exscape @lucidinferno @BradleyUffner One need only look at the best British TV shows and how their seasons are shorter and their schedules are not yearly to see how time to work on scripts and production makes for great fiction, but that can't be exploited.
Rating each episode is part of the problem. We have t step back from that madness and enjoy the exploration of characters, species, and story that made us fall in love with Star Trek.
TNG is my favorite for now because it finished well, in spite of the notoriously bad episodes that were in each season. SNW hasn't finished yet and could screw things up, so I can't say it's my favorite yet. But when comparing the two seasons of SNW to any two random seasons of TNG, SNW wins. Episode count and quality aren't necessarily linked, true, but my point is that there's a higher chance of introducing poor episodes when the season is longer. A longer season could produce 20 great episodes instead of 10, but I have yet to see a show where this happens.
Up until Trek started streaming, the longer seasons were all we had, so comparing NG to all the other shows before streaming, it's my favorite. Mainly comes down to the characters for me, as I think the storytelling in the network shows after TNG were just as strong as seasons 3-7 of TNG. And even though Disco and Picard had shorter seasons, they suffered under the weight of having to fill a predetermined episode count with a serialized show, so yes, episode count and quality aren't necessarily linked. But an episodic show with a shorter season means the show runners can be picky with the episodes they want to film, much as a chef can be picky with what dishes they want to present.
It took me far too long to understand what NG meant. Why would you do this I feel TNG is an incredibly standard abbreviation
things are a great deal more expensive these days than they were then, even comparing like to like special effects, SNW is right near the very top, and TNG was 100% advertiser supported
The traditional American 20+ episode format is superior and I have no problems dying on this hill. It is the format that got almost everyone into Star Trek, and as such we are limiting ourselves with binge-junky 10 episode format.
It requires 8 or 9 months of 18+ hours, 6 days weeks work. It's insane and only possible in the US.
This way I think we should sit at 12 to 15 and the norm. I love have 20+ season but for the well being of cast and crew the 12+ makes more since and while at time it would only be 2 more then the streaming 10 episode the extra wiggle room would allow for more stand alone episode.
Pay the writers, pay the actors, sign the contract order more episodes! ✊It’s a great show!
I see it as something exciting. There are countless incredible science fiction writers out there and a longer season could mean more opportunities for their stories to reach the screen.
Rewatching TNG recently, I’ve relished the longer seasons with loads of interesting stories. And with things being episodic, a weaker episode doesn’t ruin everything (unlike Discovery and Picard).
Michelle Hurd has been championing longer seasons of television for the sake of job security. We really just need to accept that 10 episode series are not there to "cut out the bad stuff" but to put the cast and crew in a worse position. Produce less content, if it "flops" then you've only spent so much and can cut everyone loose and recoup the loss elsewhere instead of investing jn the future.
I think more episodes of SNW would do the show a lot of good. Right now, the status quo (in my eyes, at least) is gimmick episodes. We're not getting nearly enough "normal" Trek. Season 2 specifically has mostly been gimmicks, crossovers, and bottle episodes. You really need to construct before you deconstruct, make a status quo before you break it. It would make these big episodes stand out more.
I'm not worried.
The reason SNW is better than DISCO and ENT is that the characters are real and complete. We know exactly what type of person Ortegas is, and seeing her do stuff is exciting because I'm invested in seeing her grow and change.
Compare that to Detmer from DISCO, I'm not sure what her job is, didn't know her name for serval seasons and couldn't tell you a thing about her personality. I don't care if Detmer lives, dies or grows. She's a person who exists in the background.
The hard work of establishing the characters is done. I will be happy to see them go stuff.
One of the reasons you don’t know Detmer was they made a conscious decision to make a “one main character” show instead of an ensemble show. They were consciously not trying to develop anyone but Burnham, and to a lesser extent Saru, then Stamets.
To be fair with Ortegas they lean heavily into the thrill seeking flyboy archetype.
Absolutely!
I'm not sold that any of the cast is super nuanced, but they have personalities that are distinct. You can see a situation and think "that's how La'an would react." I'm still unsure what Nahn does.
To be fair with Ortegas they lean heavily into the thrill seeking flyboy archetype.
They do, but man an Erica Ortegas centered episode would be awesome. I would love to have an episode where we aren't reminded that "Hi, my name is Erica Ortegas; I fly the ship." Because at this point it feels like it's trolling the audience.
And considering the way the season ended, there's no guarantee that Ortegas makes it through alive. She's one of the few characters that doesn't have plot armor if TOS canon is to stand relatively unaltered.
Honestly, I think SNW is in a pretty decent position for a larger episode order. Heck, having more episodes to create more space between TOS character guest appearances would probably do the series good.
My feeling watching SNW is that it isn't getting enough space to breath more and chew on its subject matter more. I'd bet the writers and show runners are voicing the same thing ... if they had more episodes they'd totally be able to fill them out with good stuff. In a way, organically growing from short episode counts into greater seasons might be a good way to go. Lots of comparisons to TNG etc here, and in those cases, maybe a shorter first season might have actually worked well.
I've talked to some folk who work in TV about just this.
The upshot is that knowing the length of run with enough time creates better episodes whether the run is short or long.
The problem is something getting big and an emergency demand for more episodes after a season has already been planned out. (or that episodes need to be cut for a reduced run).
As for the BBC, we are still very much waiting for the clock to run out on Casualty, Holby City, EastEnders, silent witness...
I'd also argue that even despite a shorter episode length, Sherlock still managed to overstay its welcome.
Don't even get me started with Sherlock. 😂 Greatest show of all time ever to jump the shark.
I don't understand this idea that fewer episodes is better. Basically my only complaint about SNW season 2 is how rushed it felt.
I would be very happy to see 15 episodes a year, I think their current cast is great. They've expanded the story of some of the characters in season 2, but I feel they could easily add a few more spotlight episodes a year.
While I understand your hesitation, I definitely believe there could have been at least five more relevant episodes in Season 2. This season was overall character driven instead of a "planet of the week" format we've seen before. So, there could have been some extra episodes that extrapolated on the seasonal Gorn arc, or an Ortegas episode, or a Pelia episode. There's a lot of potential to provide spanning character and seasonal arcs while delivering episodes from different planets over a 15 episode season.
I definitely believe 20 episodes is pushing it, but a 12-15 episode season could work if the stories are laid out well.
I'm down for more episodes per season, granted they have a good crew. It means more work for screenwriters and a potential for some amazing episodes. Let's give it a shot!
I know it's an incredibly unpopular opinion but my least favorite SNW show to date has been the musical, it was kitchy and waaaay too annoying to follow along with the story when they just kept singing all the time, it pleased the theater kids to no end, but I couldn't even make it through the episode, having said that, SNW is far and away the best Trek in the entire P+ batch yet, and I'm glad it's getting shown the love it deserves for being my sort of Trek. Looks like we got a runner, boys, long may she run.
I would enjoy having more episodes, and I (hopefully) don't think that enough people would approve anything that would compromise the quality, given how they clearly know what they're doing