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'There are mistakes, it is war': Israeli commander indicates IDF were behind white flag shooting (www.itv.com)

submitted 7 months ago by CollisionResistance@lemmy.world to c/world@lemmy.world

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[-] floofloof@lemmy.ca 60 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

More than 26,000 lethal "mistakes" so far (plus 60,000 non-lethal), and counting...

But hey, everyone makes mistakes right?

[+] Arete@lemmy.world -56 points 7 months ago

You're including both civilian and soldier deaths (which is what Hamas wants you to do, don't help them). Best estimates are now 8-10k Hamas soldiers, 16-18k civilians.

[-] blargerer@kbin.social 37 points 7 months ago

Show me the methodology because that's basically saying 100% of adult male deaths are Hamas soldiers. Smells like bullshit to me. I'd bet the number is closer to 1k than 10k.

[-] ralphio@lemmy.world 9 points 7 months ago

Yeah I'm pretty sure this is Israel's methodology for calculating Hamas deaths, 100% of adult men are soldiers. It's obviously a lie but I do believe that's where the number comes from.

[+] Arete@lemmy.world -37 points 7 months ago

You think Israel dropped 25,000 bombs, invaded, and has been waging urban combat for 4 months, but has only killed 1,000 Hamas militants? That's just silly.

Also Hamas uses child soldiers extensively (including as suicide bombers) so you can drop the "adult" part.

[-] EchoCT@lemmy.ml 34 points 7 months ago

Not silly, genocide.

[+] Arete@lemmy.world -31 points 7 months ago

It's just genocide all the way down with you guys

[-] EchoCT@lemmy.ml 10 points 7 months ago

And the totality of Gaza including children is Hamas to you. Say what you need to. I'm not the one defending murdering children, people under a white flag, woman, aid givers, medics, hospital workers and more.

[-] Linkerbaan@lemmy.world -1 points 7 months ago

It’s just genocide all the way down with israel you mean

[+] DdCno1@kbin.social -25 points 7 months ago

Reminds me of people immediately shouting "GENOCIDE!!!" when the first bombs were dropped on Houthi pirates. It really has lost all meaning and I think that's deliberate. Actual genocides will be much more difficult for people to accept after this ridiculous propaganda campaign, which is something China and Russia in particular, who are pushing narratives like these through their troll armies, are benefiting from.

[-] Viking_Hippie@lemmy.world 22 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

Reminds me of people immediately shouting "GENOCIDE!!!" when the first bombs were dropped on Houthi pirates

You apparently misunderstood the order of events. The Yemen genocide has been going on for almost a decade and is what likely radicalized some to commit acts of piracy and terrorism.

Not excusing it of course, terrorism is always inexcusable no matter what, just providing context for those like you who thought they just popped up out of nowhere for no reason.

It really has lost all meaning

That's what racists say about the word racism.

[-] athos77@kbin.social 31 points 7 months ago

If Israel isn't differentiating between civilians and soldiers when they shoot and bomb people, I don't see why I should.

[-] NoIWontPickaName@kbin.social 3 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

Here here or maybe hear hear? Idk

[+] Arete@lemmy.world -30 points 7 months ago

It doesn't fit your narrative, but the civilian/military casualty numbers are on the high side of normal for urban combat.

Super weird to defend distributing Hamas propaganda. Helping them hurts Palestinians too, who generally don't like Hamas.

[-] athos77@kbin.social 31 points 7 months ago

Super weird to be defending genocide, too, but here we are.

[-] OccamsTeapot@lemmy.world 20 points 7 months ago

It doesn't fit your narrative, but the civilian/military casualty numbers are on the high side of normal for urban combat.

If you use the numbers kindly provided by the IDF, you mean? Don't they have a pretty substantial motivation to lie?

[+] Arete@lemmy.world -19 points 7 months ago

Oh they definitely exaggerate - all parties to a conflict do. I accounted for that by using their estimates from more than a month ago against Hamas's current casualty counts. I think that's a fairly even-handed take but I'm sure people will disagree.

[-] OccamsTeapot@lemmy.world 19 points 7 months ago

Yeah I mean I would definitely disagree because that estimate was mysteriously in line with assuming every single man killed (at that point) was in Hamas. Even saying half of all men killed seems pretty generous

[+] Arete@lemmy.world -18 points 7 months ago

Unfortunately I think we need to be drawing from the "children" numbers here. Hamas uses teenage soldiers extensively, and they have every incentive to put them on the front lines and report them under the "dead children" numbers.

My personal belief, and feel free to disagree, is that the numbers look something like this:

Hamas militants killed: 3000 adults, 5000 children (aged 16 - 18), all male. Totaling 8000.

Civilians killed: 5000 children, 5000 women, 8000 men. Totalling 18000.

[-] filister@lemmy.world 10 points 7 months ago

Even those numbers seem to be highly exaggerated to me, not to mention the moral question about whether teenagers deserve to be killed, or maimed. Don't forget that Gaza's population is around 2.4M, and the Hamas militants are estimated around 30K, so even if we think that the male population of Gaza is like 600K, 30K is like 5%. Assuming that they were not using high precision munitions and deliberately were using a lot stronger bombs in this conflict I highly doubt that your number is even close to the actual casualties.

Unfortunately I believe we will never learn the actual figures because both sides would try to exaggerate/downplay those numbers.

Plus I highly doubt that all the targets were legitimate military targets. Right now it looks like a vendetta to me, where Israel is trying to make the whole region inhabitable and make the life of regular Palestinians with no affiliation to any terrorist organization a hell. And guess what? That's not a good recipe for peace or anything

[-] OccamsTeapot@lemmy.world 8 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

Assuming that they were not using high precision munitions and deliberately were using a lot stronger bombs in this conflict I highly doubt that your number is even close to the actual casualties.

Yeah I think there was a report that about half of the bombs dropped have been "dumb" bombs that aren't used for precise targeting. So based on your math from those you would expect it to be about 5% Hamas to 95% "ah well sorry you were just born in the wrong place" innocent people. The other half may have been targeted better, but we don't even really know that.

You're right that we will probably never learn. But my guess would be maybe 10% Hamas to 90% whoopsy daisy oh my god so sorry about that.

[-] athos77@kbin.social 4 points 7 months ago

It must be nice to just make up numbers and ages and sexes and occupations like that. Makes it real easy to justify genocide.

[-] Croquette@sh.itjust.works 22 points 7 months ago

It's only 16-18k death, I almost got outraged there. Anything over 20k makes me mad.

Thanks for clarifying.

[-] ElCanut@jlai.lu 20 points 7 months ago

Yet you have no proof for your numbers, while the UN literally said that those from the health ministry of Gaza, so in the 25-30k range, are correct

[-] Kalkaline@leminal.space 4 points 7 months ago

Not arguing your point, just adding to it.

The health ministry in Gaza is run by Hamas, full disclaimer, however it's the best data out there despite coming from a source that could provide some bias. Even if you consider some of those included could be Hamas combatants, the vast majority likely were not, so you're still trying to justify thousands of innocent civilians deaths because of a disproportionate response to the Hamas attack.

[-] ElCanut@jlai.lu 14 points 7 months ago

Exactly, and Hamas would probably not be the only source of information in Gaza if Israel didn't kill dozens of journalists working there

[-] davepleasebehave@lemmy.world 4 points 7 months ago

also, because Israel has enforced concentration camp conditions on the people of Gaza, they are well aware of who lives and who does there. they are, unsurprisingly,.not really happy to release their estimates.

[-] Mrkawfee@lemmy.world 12 points 7 months ago

"best estimates"

From the Zionist liars

[-] floofloof@lemmy.ca 10 points 7 months ago

Can you link a source for those estimates?

[-] givesomefucks@lemmy.world 43 points 7 months ago

It's not a war, it's an ongoing genocide...

They're killing anything that moves, and that includes people on their own side occasionally

[-] Burn_The_Right@lemmy.world 41 points 7 months ago

We did a lil whoopsie doodle. Oh well. Back to genociding.

[-] DarkNightoftheSoul@mander.xyz 11 points 7 months ago

A bit of an "oopsie-goof," if you will.

[-] IndustryStandard@lemmy.world 40 points 7 months ago

Sometimes you mistake a clearly unarmed civilian waving a white flag for multiple minutes as an enemy. You just never know.

[-] BMatthew@lemmy.world 33 points 7 months ago

This is I believe the third verified example of this I have seen, one were Israeli hostages. One time is a mistake, this is not. This is the same country that has a directive that will order the military to kill their own citizens.

[-] Rentlar@lemmy.ca 24 points 7 months ago

This guy
The Israeli hostages
The woman with her grandson holding the white flag

3 is my count as well.

[-] Deceptichum@kbin.social 15 points 7 months ago

Once is by accident. Twice is by accident. Three times is by accident.

That’s how the saying goes, right?

[-] Rentlar@lemmy.ca 4 points 7 months ago

Fool me once - shame on, shame on you. Fool me... you can't get fooled again!

Someone with a lot of Middle East "Experience"

[-] Rentlar@lemmy.ca 27 points 7 months ago

Yeah Israel, when your goal is to kill tens of thousands of people or more, you'll make a few mistakes and kill the "wrong people" on occasion. Maybe try something like... not committing genocidal acts?

[-] ghostdoggtv@lemmy.world 17 points 7 months ago

Anybody who's ever fired a gun knows this couldn't be a mistake.

[-] winterayars@sh.itjust.works 12 points 7 months ago

Oh, interesting, because when we were talking about war crimes everyone was like "It's not war, though!" Hmmm.

[-] DarkNightoftheSoul@mander.xyz 9 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

He really seems torn up about it, too.

[-] badbytes@lemmy.world 4 points 7 months ago

Israel took a big step into doodoo this time.

[-] badbytes@lemmy.world 1 points 7 months ago

Isreals days are numbered. Look at Middle East map, dumb fucks.

[-] maness300@lemmy.world 2 points 7 months ago

Yeah, the world would be a better place without zionism.

[-] Linkerbaan@lemmy.world -1 points 7 months ago

They probably thought that it was an escaped hostage trying to return to israel again.

this post was submitted on 30 Jan 2024

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