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submitted 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) by KarnaSubarna@lemmy.ml to c/privacy@lemmy.ml

Mozilla is unhappy because the use of browser engines other than WebKit will be restricted to the EU, forcing them to develop two different apps.

For an independent browser like Firefox, managing two browsers is not easy, so it can be forgiven that this could be seen as almost harassment.

Also, the fact that the use of browser engines other than WebKit is limited to iOS means that the use of WebKit is still forced on iPadOS, which also increases the effort for Mozilla.

Source: https://iphonewired.com/news/746093/

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[-] pineapplelover@lemm.ee 172 points 11 months ago

I'm fucking enraged man. I hope we can regulate these assholes.

[-] GravitySpoiled@lemmy.ml 75 points 11 months ago

There is a very easy solution. Don't buy apple.

[-] NateNate60@lemmy.world 115 points 11 months ago

That's not a solution. It's a way for you to avoid the problem. It does nothing to help the millions of people who are already deeply invested in the Apple ecosystem.

[-] GravitySpoiled@lemmy.ml 37 points 11 months ago
[-] oo1@kbin.social 5 points 11 months ago
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[-] NateNate60@lemmy.world 5 points 11 months ago

Not a solution.

This not only has a time and effort cost attached to it but selling your used hardware to buy new hardware is always a bad value proposition.

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[-] refurbishedrefurbisher@lemmy.sdf.org 15 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

People should fully own the computers they buy, regardless of which company they buy from.

This means root access and a replacable primary bootloader, let alone just being able to install apps not on a curated market (what Apple calls sideloading). macOS and Windows both manage to allow root access, and so do certain Android devices (and obviously other OSs as well). Replacable primary bootloaders are more rare, though, especially in ARM devices due to efuse-based secure boot in the CPU that is impossible to turn off. There's only one phone I can think of that allows for replacing the primary bootloader (Shift 6mq).

We shouldn't allow for artificial restrictions placed by corporations on devices they sell, because as we have seen time and time again, companies copy each others' restrictions, especially Apple. Same goes with game consoles, IoT devices, Smart TVs, etc. And before you mention the potential for piracy, DRM is an artificial restriction placed by corporations, and should also be removed from devices.

Anything less means that you don't own the device that you paid for.

Apple is clearly attempting to comply with the EU DMA in bad faith so that they can maintain as much control over their users and app developers as possible.

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[-] bionicjoey@lemmy.ca 19 points 11 months ago

And that's coming from someone who has "applelover" in their username. They fucked up big time by pissing off even their most loyal fans.

(/j)

[-] pineapplelover@lemm.ee 7 points 11 months ago

Honestly, I don't know how many normies this will upset. Pretty much only techies follow this and the people being annoyed by it might just blame the app developer and not Apple. Time will tell

[-] sparky@lemmy.federate.cc 16 points 11 months ago

I mean, this is basically malicious compliance. They did everything in their power to follow the letter but eschew the spirit of the law. Let’s hope the EU has teeth and keeps applying pressure.

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[-] M500@lemmy.ml 92 points 11 months ago

I like how just about everyone I who’s looked at this is basically like, “fuck apple”.

There are a few fanboys, but they are way less common than usual.

I’m hoping Apple picks up on this and reverses course.

[-] MrMcGasion@lemmy.world 18 points 11 months ago

They won't care, they have the consumerist crowd locked down. The crowd that buys dozens of Stanley Tumblers so they have one that matches any outfit. There might be more of us who care than there used to be, but the average iPhone buyer doesn't care and Apple knows it.

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[-] sparky@lemmy.federate.cc 5 points 11 months ago

I mean, I’ll take a stab at speaking for Apple fans, and in fact developers. (I’m an ex-employee.)

There are a lot of things we like about the user experience on their platforms, and we appreciate their general interest in privacy while not engaging in the dirty data mining / advertising business of Google and Microsoft. There is a polish on their platforms that is best in class.

But I don’t believe any of us actually support the App Store lockdown situation. It’s probably the biggest black mark on their record. I think they got it right on macOS, requiring the binaries to be notarised (signed digitally) in such a way that malware can be blacklisted. This is a useful security feature. But developers are free to distribute however they want and third party stores like SetApp and Steam coexist happily with the App Store.

100% of their arguments about keeping the App Store as the sole distribution chain are bullshit because macOS is the proof. It’s pure rent-seeking behaviour.

[-] erez@programming.dev 18 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

There is a polish on their platforms that is best in class

As someone who was an Android user and tried switching to an iPhone, I see lots of weird bugs and behaviors I never had with Android. Sure, the OS is slightly better, and rarely crashes, but everything else is a little bit worse.

Literally every Google app is better than Apple's. Be it Google maps, keyboard, mail, calendar, etc. But because they aren't made for iPhone, there's all kinds of little bugs, mostly visual/UI related.

And then there's all these nonsensical decisions that make my life harder. Hotspot can't run with wifi on, you can't record your calls (very useful when talking to banks, government, etc.), can't even arrange the icons in "home" screen to fixed locations or make them smaller.

I finally figured out that when Apple fans talk about polish, they just mean it looks pretty and feels high-end. Which, sure, I can concede that. But that's not what I actually care about.

Anyway, rant over, sorry to take it out on you!

[-] porous_grey_matter@lemmy.ml 18 points 11 months ago

But the privacy is just a facade, right? Like with that recent scandal about the government requesting push notification info, Google of all companies was actually only handing it over with valid warrants while Apple was giving it to any law enforcement who asked.

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[-] KinglyWeevil@lemmy.dbzer0.com 52 points 11 months ago

My wife has an iPad and one of the things I hate the most is that you can't install adblock extensions into Firefox on it like you can on Android. Which is a thing that has made using the browser on the phone wayyyy more enjoyable.

[-] deranger@sh.itjust.works 11 points 11 months ago

I use DNS level blocking for blocking ads on iOS devices.

[-] Pantherina@feddit.de 23 points 11 months ago

Yeah not comparable. There is so much cosmetic blocking and also many sites will just load ads from the same domain.

[-] HumanPerson@sh.itjust.works 5 points 11 months ago

Like YouTube iirc.

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[-] krnl386@lemmy.ca 5 points 11 months ago

The Orion browser for iOS/iPadOS supports both Firefox and Chromium extensions, however, the support is quite buggy and limited. Nonetheless, a valiant effort by Orion devs.

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[-] Zerush@lemmy.ml 45 points 11 months ago

Apple always had been painfull for any third party devs. Also Vivaldi worked several years to create a browser which works in this iPhone thing, and now, after it's release, Apple admits Chromium.

[-] 0xtero@beehaw.org 41 points 11 months ago

So hear me out. What if we took $6.9M out of the CEO bonus and dropped the Mozilla AI project?
Maybe that would be enough to hire a maintainer or two for Firefox iOS port?
Maybe that could work?
I don't know, just an idea. Crazy.

[-] selokichtli@lemmy.ml 22 points 11 months ago

Yeah, that will fix Apple being total utter assholes. Giving them what they want always fixes everyone being assholes.

[-] GravitySpoiled@lemmy.ml 16 points 11 months ago

I don't know what you coul have against mozilla ai?

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[-] vinhill@feddit.de 12 points 11 months ago

Mozilla has a budget of around 200 mil for software development, so the 7 mil are probably not enough. Not defending the high pay though.

Also, AI Integration into browsers could very well be a deciding factor for mainstream users when choosing a browser. So having some expertise around e.g. running LLMs privacy preserving on client hardware for page summarisation could pay off. Llamafile for example, is something cool coming from the Mozilla AI stuff.

[-] crispy_kilt@feddit.de 7 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

page summarisation

I see a future where the journalist gives the LLM two sentences and asks it to spit out a 2000 word article out of that.

The user then asks the LLM to Tl;Dr the article down to the two core sentences.

Same probably for business email. Jane goes "send an email to Joe saying no." The LLM goes "dear joe.. we appreciate.... your valuable conteibution.. unfortunately at this time... cannot consider... looking forward... thanks for .... whatever". Joe then clicks the "summarise" button and gets "Jane says no".

Amazing how far we've come.

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[-] Pantherina@feddit.de 6 points 11 months ago

Firefox is the only browser with local website translation. Literally the extension is the only app on Android that does that.

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[-] LWD@lemm.ee 5 points 11 months ago

Yes, but also require Apple to expand its EU software to people not in the EU

"Both is good" El Dorado meme

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[-] Jumuta@sh.itjust.works 32 points 11 months ago

genuinely fuck Apple for stealing khtml and driving it into the ground

[-] Aradia@lemmy.ml 25 points 11 months ago

Why not stopping developing apps for Apple systems? Fuck them.

[-] Darorad@lemmy.world 85 points 11 months ago

Mozilla doesn't have the sort of leverage to make an impact by abandoning apple devices. Firefox has an incredibly low market share and this could push people to other browsers. People tend to use the same browser for stuff like bookmark and password syncing, so abandoning ios could have larger consequences.

[-] Aradia@lemmy.ml 6 points 11 months ago

Yeah I understand, but if Apple is fucking up with our development, not only for Firefox, for any developer that makes apps for phones... why keep following their abusive rules? When I say "stopping developing apps for Apple" I mean, any developer that dislikes the abusive rules of Apple and fees. If we abandon the system, the iOS users will need to move to Android or other systems that are more friendly for developers.

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[-] Kidplayer_666@lemm.ee 19 points 11 months ago

The issue is that larger companies which could have an impact (Netflix, google, Meta) already have special deals in place that bypass these rules

[-] Aradia@lemmy.ml 13 points 11 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

https://newsroom.spotify.com/2024-01-26/apples-proposed-changes-reject-the-goals-of-the-dma/

And it comes down to a fundamental question: Will the European Commission follow through with its intent to right-size Apple’s abuse of power? Or will the DMA be nice in theory, but in practice, have no substantive meaning for most developers?

From Spotify.

Update: https://www.theverge.com/2024/1/29/24054943/microsoft-apple-app-store-dma-rule-change-response Xbox (Microsoft)

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[-] Churbleyimyam@lemm.ee 23 points 11 months ago

The fun life of an Apple customer.

[-] LeroyJenkins@lemmy.world 17 points 11 months ago

how do I de-apple my iPhone?

[-] amir_s89@lemmy.ml 19 points 11 months ago

Don't purchase & start using it from the first place. Save yourself plenty of resources. Focus on something else productive & valuable.

[-] trippingonthewire@lemmy.ml 11 points 11 months ago

You could try to jailbreak but honestly you're better off not having an iPhone

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[-] ohlaph@lemmy.world 12 points 11 months ago

Their lack of choice is why I'll never buy Apple products.

[-] autotldr@lemmings.world 11 points 11 months ago

This is the best summary I could come up with:


Apple’s new rules in the European Union mean browsers like Firefox can finally use their own engines on iOS.

Although this may seem like a welcome change, Mozilla spokesperson Damiano DeMonte tells The Verge it’s “extremely disappointed” with the way things turned out.

“We are still reviewing the technical details but are extremely disappointed with Apple’s proposed plan to restrict the newly-announced BrowserEngineKit to EU-specific apps,” DeMonte says.

In iOS 17.4, Apple will no longer force browsers in the EU to use WebKit, the underlying engine that powers Safari.

“Apple’s proposals fail to give consumers viable choices by making it as painful as possible for others to provide competitive alternatives to Safari,” DeMonte adds.

Epic CEO Tim Sweeney called the new terms a “horror show,” while Spotify said the changes are a “farce.” Apple’s guidelines are still pending approval by the EU Commission.


The original article contains 285 words, the summary contains 142 words. Saved 50%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!

[-] Rinox@feddit.it 11 points 11 months ago

I really hope the EU gives them the middle finger and tells them to apply the law in good faith, not like this.

Still can't do much for markets outside the EU though. Countries like the US, Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Australia should implement similar laws. That would force Apple's hand.

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[-] feoh@lemmy.ml 6 points 10 months ago

Apple does not care and will never care about open source other than the bits it has to care about because they're a part of Darwin, their core.

They're a company offering a particular "experience" and open source products do not fit into that model well at all. I use apple phones because I'm partially blind and for a very long time the accessibility story on Android was a screaming nightmare (I'm told it's got better) but I have no illusions that they're anything other than a profit seeking MegaCorp with all that implies.

[-] Grant_M@lemmy.ca 5 points 10 months ago

Apple, Google, Microsoft all worthy of a massive boycott.

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this post was submitted on 27 Jan 2024
775 points (98.7% liked)

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