this post was submitted on 09 Apr 2026

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318

Trump hurt Nato’s credibility more in past weeks than Putin managed in years, says Czech president – Europe live (www.theguardian.com)

submitted 3 days ago by HellsBelle@sh.itjust.works to c/world@lemmy.world

48 comments fedilink hide all child comments

Czech president Petr Pavel warned that Donald Trump’s recent comments questioning the role of Nato have damaged the alliance’s credibility more than the Russian president, Vladimir Putin, has done in several years.

Pavel, a retired Nato general and former chair of the Nato military committee, also said that Trump’s criticism of the alliance over the Iran war was “to put it mildly, unfair”.

“The moment we begin to question the alliance as a single, united entity, ready to act together and very decisively then, of course, its role is lost,” he warned.

He said that Trump ‘s criticism appeared to miss the fact that Nato is a defence alliance, and “not an alliance that will automatically help in wars waged outside its territory”.

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[–] bearboiblake@pawb.social 47 points 3 days ago (2 children)

Honestly, as a European, this is a good thing. For far too long the entire western world have basically been vassals of the American empire. This is an opportunity to finally get out from under their shadow and forge our own path, away from imperialism and towards peaceful multilateral diplomacy.

[–] comrade_twisty@feddit.org 12 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Unless at least Germany and Poland acquire nukes the EU will be a dwarf in a US/China dominated world.

The main thing NATO ensured was nuclear non-proliferation.

With NATO gone everyone in Europe needs nukes to survive.

[–] bearboiblake@pawb.social 19 points 3 days ago (1 children)

France has nukes, at least. I agree, though, unfortunately and tragically it seems that nuclear sovereignty is becoming necessary.

[–] NeilNuggetstrong@lemmy.world 13 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Unfortunately, the EU needs to federalize, obtain an EU army and EU controller nukes.

[–] bearboiblake@pawb.social 6 points 3 days ago

It does seem to be going that way. We certainly do live in interesting and terrifying times. Reminiscent of the build up towards World War 2, except this time, with nuclear weapons...

[+] CanadaPlus@futurology.today -15 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (3 children)

Yup, Europe has never done imperialism. It was all America. /s

[–] gravitas_deficiency@sh.itjust.works 13 points 2 days ago (3 children)

You do get that the vast majority of Europe is trying to lean away from their respective imperialist pasts, right?

[–] Buffalox@lemmy.world 8 points 2 days ago

Not just trying, it's built into our laws, at least for the countries that are in EU.

[–] rabber@lemmy.ca 2 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Some of the biggest companies in Germany are still owned by nazis and nobody cares

[–] Buffalox@lemmy.world 5 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Well compared to many of the American billionaires, those Nazis look like saints.

[–] rabber@lemmy.ca 1 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Um they are just not loud. Lol. They are still nazis. And nazism is alive and well in germany.

[–] Buffalox@lemmy.world 5 points 2 days ago (2 children)

Are they undermining healthcare for all? Are they destroying democracy? Are they leading massive campaigns that claim climate change is a hoax? And suppressing scientists that work with it, and the organizations they work in?
I have never seen anything in Europe that is nearly as bad as for instance the Koch brothers. And the Koch brothers are far from alone. I think we got that established with the Epstein case, that has shown that the rich in USA cooperate towards a common goal, to take ever more power.

[–] boonhet@sopuli.xyz 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Kühne literally makes billions from Germany but has his tax residence in Switzerland because he doesn't think the German government should get his money. Probably still salty about when they stopped his dad, an outspoken nazi party member, from looting Jewish peoples' property. Which is what made them billionaires in the first place. He of course says nothing happened and they didn't get rich off genocide while simultaneously refusing to open the company's wartime archives. Honestly think he'd deny Hitler existed if he could get away with it.

So maybe they're not trying to undermine healthcare for all, but they're evading the taxes that pay for said healthcare while literally trying to downplay the genocide that made their families rich.

[–] Buffalox@lemmy.world 1 points 1 day ago

I have no doubt they are no good, and undermine the societies they make their money on, but there are degrees of evil and there are degrees of insanity.
And by comparison American billionaires are the worst, and decidedly undermine democracy heavily using their money for greater influence, probably mostly because they are allowed, not because Europeans are better people. But the system in USA celebrating money and sociopathy make Americans worse.

[–] rabber@lemmy.ca 1 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Are they destroying democracy?

Yes! Wtf. How do you think these far right parties are getting popular again?

[–] Buffalox@lemmy.world 2 points 2 days ago

I think AfD is a symptom from the old East Germany, and I think they are supported maybe even created by Russian intelligence, AfD has shown strong support for Russia, and even gathered intelligence for Russia, and worked as Russian agents. AfD is also very anti immigrant. Which is not an interest of billionaires, that generally prefer access to lots of cheap labor.

I really don't see how the German far right is explained by German billionaires supporting them.

So yes WTF indeed are you on about?

[–] CanadaPlus@futurology.today -1 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

Ehhh. The far right is doing pretty well in Europe, and they're sorry for nothing. Across the class spectrum as opposed to just in the poor, rural and uneducated, too.

You're not OP, so there's the sticky wicket of what we're comparing to, as well. The US's actual history is as a colony that broke away, and it often took anti-imperialist stances as a result. They did some of their own as well, but never on the scale of, say, Britain or Portugal. This is Lemmy where if the US breathes it's redefined as imperialism, though.

[–] Buffalox@lemmy.world 6 points 2 days ago (1 children)

The far right is doing pretty well in Europe

What a complete bullshit statement.
Yes having 5-10% of the European vote is doing well, because it used to be less, but compared to USA where Trump got the majority vote!! And Trump is more extreme than even the AfD.

In USA the extreme right is actually in power, extreme as in literally fascist destroying democracy and talking about genocide far right. Europe is nowhere near where USA and Russia are. But of course we are paying attention.

[–] CanadaPlus@futurology.today 3 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Looking randomly at France, it's closer to 50% right now, and other parties have been adopting far-right stances across the continent to compete. But yes, the US is much worse. Although that broad cross-class appeal worries me. With any luck it ends in Japanese-style democracy not Hungarian-style autocracy.

Anyway, OP came in only mentioning the US, and said imperialism, not fascism or autocracy or the far-right. Those are not the same thing.

[–] Buffalox@lemmy.world 2 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Even in France there's a huge difference between the extreme right there and in USA. Le Penn is of course a traitor that support Russia, but she is not for instance advocating against healthcare for all. She is also not trying to undermine ordinary workers. But she hates foreigners and think Russia should be allowed to take Ukraine. But she is also not a war monger like Trump, and as far as we know she is not a pedophile.

Yes she is bad, and I have no idea why she is popular in France? But she is not nearly as dangerous to our democracy even just in France, as Trump is in USA. Also they do not have 40-50% support, she only got 23% of the vote, only because France has the stupid system that ends op pitting 2 candidates did she get 41% of the vote, when there was only one other candidate to compete against.

So you are wildly exaggerating the popularity of the far right in France and in Europe. Only the undemocratic presidential system in France makes her and "Rassemblement National" a danger of getting actual power.

[–] CanadaPlus@futurology.today 0 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Oh, you're French yourself. Didn't mean to make this personal, for what it's worth.

Only the undemocratic presidential system in France makes her and “Rassemblement National” a danger of getting actual power.

Ditto for the US. Each party gets 50% every election, with the margin swinging predictably based on, like, who's incumbent and how the economy is. And electoral districts are basically designed to have a set outcome at this point. Trump came to power because he's popular with the radicals that vote in Republican primaries.

FWIW their system is so much worse than the French one, even if the French one is worse than, like, Norway.

[–] Buffalox@lemmy.world 1 points 1 day ago

No I'm not French, I'm from Denmark.

Ditto for the US.

Yes, except in USA it's worse, because the president of USA has even more extensive powers, and congress isn't entirely democratic either.

[–] Buffalox@lemmy.world 2 points 2 days ago

Oh please, talk about ridiculous straw man argument. European countries have abandoned taking colonies since WW2, and transitioned completely to laws that respect international law and human rights. Which means respecting national sovereignty.
This is of course limited to the democratic part of Europe, so unfortunately Russia and Belarus do not stand by those values.

[–] bearboiblake@pawb.social 2 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Obviously Europe is not immune to imperialist sentiment, but at the moment, America is a great, terrible evil, perhaps the worst the world has ever seen. Even if our own societies aren't perfect, we are far better apart from fascist America than we would be with them.

[–] CanadaPlus@futurology.today -1 points 2 days ago (1 children)

They are dangerous now, that's true, although it doesn't seem like imperialism is the right word.

[–] bearboiblake@pawb.social 2 points 2 days ago (1 children)

What would you call it?

[–] CanadaPlus@futurology.today 1 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

You said fascist too, and that fits really well.

Imperialism is a very specific system, and while the US has started dabbling in it again, they're still largely producing their own wealth, and have also dabbled in isolationism which is one possible opposite. In the other direction, the nth British lord of Whatevershire (or whatever Chinese or Sumerian noble) didn't really meet the populist part of the definition of fascism, but was definitely imperialist.

It's really a detail, so I'm kind of sheepish for bringing it up, but on Lemmy I think it's an important one.

[–] bearboiblake@pawb.social 1 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

From Wikipedia's article on Imperialism:

Imperialism is the maintaining and extending of power over foreign nations, particularly through expansionism, employing both hard power (military and economic power) and soft power (diplomatic power and cultural imperialism). Imperialism focuses on establishing or maintaining hegemony and a more formal empire.

I feel like that perfectly fits the behavior of the American Empire, not just in recent years, but going back decades. Hegemony is absolutely what they've always been trying to build. Don't you feel like the Munroe doctrine is an imperialist endeavor? The US invasion of Vietnam? Venezuela? The Philippines? Hawaii? Afghanistan? Iraq? Iran? The ongoing blockade and years of terrorist attacks against Cuba?

The idea that America is heavily invested in being a "world police" has been a meme going back decades. What is that, if not the maintenance and extension of power over foreign nations?

Someone is still in denial, I think. For what it's worth, I don't judge you for that, I totally understand it, but I think you're doing yourself a disservice here.

[–] CanadaPlus@futurology.today 1 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

Yup. They grabbed a few islands and puppeted a few Latin American countries.

If we're talking about history, Europe blows them out of the water. If we're talking about now, refer to last reply.

[–] bearboiblake@pawb.social 1 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

It's not just about land acquisitions and colonialism, but also about hegemony. Again, you'll get no argument from me that Europe hasn't had a terrible history (and even present) of imperialism. The British Empire was unbelievably terrible, and France, Italy, Spain, the Netherlands, Belgium, et al. all have (or had) their own imperialist interests. No argument from me there at all. I am anti-imperialist, not anti-American.

This all just feels like pure whataboutism because you're uncomfortable confronting the fact that the United States has a long and sordid history of imperialism.

[–] CanadaPlus@futurology.today 1 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

I'm Canadian, and boycott all their shit. No, that's not it.

[–] bearboiblake@pawb.social 0 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

I had guessed as much from your username! You don't need to be American to struggle to come to terms with this stuff, I have conversations like these with people from all over the world, from Australia to Canada.

But you know yourself better than I know you, so of course I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on that. I'm guessing you have a very specific definition of imperialism which I don't share, and I'm guessing most others don't share. That's okay, at the end of the day, you're entitled to that, but I think it'll probably lead you into some rather unproductive conversations.

[–] CanadaPlus@futurology.today 1 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

Well, after thinking about it a bit, productive or not it seems important. There's more than just a word at stake.

As the term seems to be commonly understood IRL, imperialism is a specific (and common) historical phenomenon, where you take a foreign land's wealth by force.

Meanwhile, people on here will happily tell you there's no difference between Afghanistan, which has and had nothing, and was left largely the same as it came in, and what Spain did in the Caribbean. Using the same word is newspeak, and it's historical revisionism.

Don't give in to it. You can dislike American foreign policy without stripping all the context out, and should. All rewriting history accomplishes is better excuses for people that want to repeat it - even America.

[–] bearboiblake@pawb.social 1 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

Taking wealth through force is not necessarily an act of imperialism, and that is not how the term is commonly understood - the term for such an act is pillage.

Pillage is often a part of imperialist endeavors, but not necessarily so. Imperialism can take place without a single act of pillage.

I'm not "giving into" anything. I have been calling out and arguing against US imperialism for decades. Everyone else is catching up to me, finally, and thankfully.

If you want to continue to deny it, that is very much your prerogative, but again, I think you'll find yourself on the losing side of that argument more and more as time goes on.

[–] CanadaPlus@futurology.today 2 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

If there's been no shift in how the US is acting, which seems to be what you're saying, the rest of the world is just being sensitive, like America's diplomats are fond of saying. You're unwittingly advancing the same propaganda line.

People don't catch up, at most a person can. Old idiots die and new idiots are born, and the total stays the same.

(If you're trying to break this off, thanks for being pleasant to talk to)

[–] bearboiblake@pawb.social 1 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

There is definitely a shift in how the US is acting. Donald Trump is persuing imperialist ambitions in a brazen, vulgar way, which has exposed those ambitions far more undeniably than ever. It has been a real wake up call for many people around the world.

In the past, US leaders have acted with a veneer of plausible deniability, but that is now completely out of the window. The propaganda machine of the US empire is now on full display for everyone to see, and with the surge of independent media coinciding with all of this, suddenly, all of the cards are revealed.

If the US government and mainstream media are so clearly and obviously lying now, people are more willing to seriously consider that they may have lied in the past. All it takes is for people like myself to point it out to them, and they don't even argue much anymore.

It's over. You can't put the toothpaste back in the tube. The US empire's collapse is now inevitable. Sit back, and enjoy the show.

[–] Buffalox@lemmy.world 25 points 2 days ago

It was over with USA as part of NATO when Trump threatened allies, first Canada as becoming part of USA, and later direct threats of invasion of Greenland that is a NATO ally, that has allowed all the American bases on Greenland they wanted.
The latter was the nail in the coffin for many European politicians. They just generally don't say it out loud, but are moving on without USA.

[–] magnue@lemmy.world 10 points 2 days ago

I disagree. I think it shows that NATO has a modicum of a spine and won't bow to a corrupt president no matter how conventionally powerful their military.

[–] vga@sopuli.xyz 3 points 2 days ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Putin hasn't hurt Nato's credibility at all. More like strengthened it relative to Russia's credibility.

edit Unless we count Trump of course.

[–] HubertManne@piefed.social 13 points 2 days ago (1 children)

to be fair trump is an effect of putin.

[–] Tolc@lemmy.world 1 points 1 day ago

tump is an effect of neo liberalism, capitalism

I dont know until when will libs live in denial

[–] TankovayaDiviziya@lemmy.world 2 points 2 days ago

Trump: Yeah, that's the point.

[–] voxthefox@lemmy.blahaj.zone 8 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Id say anything trump does to nato should also be included in duties column

[–] phutatorius@lemmy.zip 5 points 2 days ago (2 children)

One of the main reasons I hate Putin is that he inflicted Trump on us. For that alone, he should suffer horribly.

[–] Tolc@lemmy.world 1 points 1 day ago

Putin is that he inflicted Trump on us

how?

[–] atropa@piefed.social 3 points 2 days ago

Its all about the Epstein files

[–] Foni@piefed.zip 3 points 2 days ago

Hurt? The alliance is dead and only continues to exist by inertia while something else is organized in Europe. If anyone believes at this point that the USA would honor Article 5, they are simply stupid.

[–] Pacattack57@lemmy.world 1 points 2 days ago

Iran is not a member of NATO so I don’t see how Trump being an absolute piece of shit damages nato reputation. It is common knowledge Trump wants to leave nato anyway