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Why is Debian always left out of the distro recommendations? (lemmy.zip)
submitted 14 hours ago by UnfinishedProjects@lemmy.zip to c/linux@lemmy.ml
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I distro hopped for a bit before finally settling in Debian (because Debian was always mentioned as a distro good for servers, or stable machines that are ok with outdated software)

And while I get that Debian does have software that isn't as up to date, I've never felt that the software was that outdated. Before landing on Debian, I always ran into small hiccups that caused me issues as a new Linux user - but when I finally switched over to Debian, everything just worked! Especially now with Debian 13.

So my question is: why does Debian always get dismissed as inferior for everyday drivers, and instead mint, Ubuntu, or even Zorin get recommended? Is there something I am missing, or does it really just come down to people not wanting software that isn't "cutting edge" release?

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[–] utopiah@lemmy.ml 21 points 5 hours ago* (last edited 2 hours ago) (2 children)

I'll be honest : because people is ignorant.

They tried Debian once few years ago, it didn't have the exact driver they wanted out of the box, they gave up. They think that's the normal and current experience.

Reality is I use Debian every day on my servers, SBCs, laptop but also my desktop. I've been gaming on it since the first day of the installation and it just worked. Sure I had to follow https://wiki.debian.org/NvidiaGraphicsDrivers and basically follow those steps. It took me maybe 15min and 1 reboot but since then NO tinkering, 0, and I'm gaming nearly daily from indie to AAA, from 2D to 3D to VR. As I mentioned in another reply sure I might not have perfectly optimized all my performance but I don't give a shit, I'm just gaming!

Also as I mentioned elsewhere the "cutting edge" is bullshit. You can have a Debian installation, stable, and cherry pick the packages you want. Heck you can even pull from a forge the software you want, built it, run it. That's how "bleeding edge" it can be. Of course you can use VM (with GPU passthrough), distrobox, AppImage, Nix (different from NixOS), etc so they are many many ways to make sure you use the absolute latest without breaking your system.

TL;DR: Debian does not position itself as a gaming distribution. A lot of gamers want to optimize everything for gaming and consequently assume a specialized distribution will do better. Meanwhile people who JUST want to play can definitely do so on Debian.

[–] Holytimes@sh.itjust.works 1 points 57 minutes ago

Yeah but ppa and apt are the worse of all the options. Other wise you right.

Fuck ppas horrid system.

[–] mbp@lemmy.sdf.org 2 points 4 hours ago

Hot take but totally agreed

I do debian on my servers (barring specific uses), arch on my desktop.

[–] VoxAliorum@lemmy.ml 3 points 3 hours ago

I think it's a reinforcing cycle. (I) Debian gets recommended less often for home use -> (II) less people become proficient in it -> (I)

[–] ArsonButCute@lemmy.dbzer0.com 8 points 7 hours ago (3 children)

My 2¢:

I think it's gamer discourse bleeding out into other fields. Gamers need the newest libraries and the newest drivers or their stuff might not run as well as it possibly could, because gaming is a relatively young but aggressively growing field with the Linux ecosystem in general. Sure games have always been around, but it's never been the focus.

Now that gamers are switching more frequently, and that the average user is likely to play a game occasionally, it's becoming relatively important that packages be up to date for desktop workloads.

[–] False@lemmy.world 2 points 2 hours ago

Considering games are the most intensive things most people will use their computer for, I think it's fine to optimize for that use case and assume everything else will be "fine"

[–] utopiah@lemmy.ml 5 points 5 hours ago (2 children)

Gamers need the newest libraries and the newest drivers or their stuff might not run as well as it possibly could

No they don't. They think they do because they believe they run their precious expensive hardware only at 99% whereas they imagine, I bet due to trying to compete with each others on benchmarks, that with the absolute latest driver they can actually push their GPU at 99.99% and gain .1FPS in the most popular game they might not even like and 2 points in the trendy benchmark.

Source : I'm a gamer playing on Debian, from indie to AAA, from 2D to 3D to VR, and it just works. Sure I'm not at 99% perf on my hardware, I might even be at 80% but I'm definitely spending 0% time tinkering and 100% having fun.

[–] Holytimes@sh.itjust.works 1 points 54 minutes ago

With how frequently I have to wait on mesa updates, kernel updates and package updates to even hit my arch systems for functionality.

No fucking world exists where Debian with out a bunch of fucking around has 1/2 those fixes in reasonable time frame.

In fact I know they don't cause I frequently have to put my Debian install aside to play various games because the fixes and packages required literally do not come fast enough.

[–] False@lemmy.world 2 points 2 hours ago (1 children)

I've literally had to wait for fixes to hit new mesa versions to play newly released games. Having those packages be up to date is just going to be a better experience for people that care about that kind of stuff

[–] utopiah@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 hour ago* (last edited 1 hour ago)

Newer packages will in theory always be better, that doesn't really matter which distribution or use case (gaming or not) one has.

Even if Debian were generating packages the second a pull request was accepted and making it available to everyone and any one it wouldn't change that the next pull request would, in theory (without regression) be more up to date.

If people have to wait 1s or 1 year, for gaming or not, they can have fun.

If hardware is not properly supported though it's a different issue. It means people need to buy hardware that is well supported. It's not specific to a distribution.

I'm playing old and new games on the SteamDeck and it works even if I don't update it. That's how things should be, that's how things already are.

Anecdotes, even if important personally of course, showing things don't work in a specific context don't make a trend. There are plenty of things that don't work well on Debian but also on Arch, Mint, etc and of course on Windows too. It's very annoying but I don't see how that helps.

[–] Hazematman@lemmy.ca 3 points 6 hours ago

you're probably right as to why.

I'll note that on my gaming desktop I decided to try out Debian instead of my usual choice of Fedora and its worked fine for gaming with latest gen CPU and GPU. I did install the steam flatpak which will have a newer version of Mesa. I think this is a good middle ground for a system you don't want to mess with too much.

[–] mech@feddit.org 37 points 12 hours ago (1 children)

People asking for distro recommendations usually ask for their desktop.

Debian is great, but it's hardly ever the best choice for a desktop, at least not for the kind of people who ask for distro recommendations.

[–] makingStuffForFun@lemmy.ml 12 points 12 hours ago (4 children)

I've used it for a few years. What issue does it have for a desktop? I've had everything "just work".

[–] Diurnambule@jlai.lu 1 points 4 hours ago

Old packages in repos. I tried some stuff on LLM and VR and ubuntu had package more updated than Debian. That sad you have to reinstall Ubuntu each time you have to do a security update...

[–] mech@feddit.org 31 points 12 hours ago* (last edited 12 hours ago) (1 children)

There is absolutely no issue with it.
But there are lots of other distros that add things to it which are great for desktop.
GUI tools for driver installation and kernel switching, snapshots, preinstalled Steam+Wine+Codecs+Flatpak, newer and more software, atomic updates, a faster package manager, more third party support, etc.

Debian is better than it ever was, but so are lots of other distros, especially the ones that build on it.
Nowadays you really have the choice between "good" and "better".

[–] erebion@news.erebion.eu 4 points 1 hour ago

My parents for example do not care about tools for drivers installation (everything works just fine already), they don't know what a kernel is (so there's no need to switch), snapshots/Flatpak/Steam/Wine/faster package manager are not important (they don't know what any of that is).

They use a browser and occasionally a text editor, that's it. Debian + GNOME works really well for them.

Often something simple is just right.

[–] wilmo@lemmy.ml 7 points 11 hours ago (2 children)

Debian might work but it will always be behind and if any performance upgrades are done at a kernel level or a DE then you won't get them until those fixes are potentially already obsolete.

[–] erebion@news.erebion.eu 1 points 58 minutes ago (1 children)

Debian is not behind. Changed enter the repos pretty quickly and every 25 months you get a release. Which is perfect, as it means I don't have to maintenance for my mother that often.

Still there are security patches.

If you want the newest shiny stuff, use Testing or Unstable. I've done that for years, for that is not the right choice for everyone, as things change on the time. And I don't get paid for the tech support I do for my family, so I'd rather see them have larger changes less often. Family would agree, as they find it difficult to learn how to deal with the changes.

[–] Holytimes@sh.itjust.works 1 points 50 minutes ago

Even Debian unstable can be months behind a lot of fixes for gaming related things.

VR for example is a fucking nightmare in general but God FUCK you wait months behind fedora or arch for a lot of fixes on Debian.

[–] Die4Ever@retrolemmy.com 3 points 9 hours ago* (last edited 9 hours ago) (2 children)

then why do people suggest Mint so often? especially to gamers who often have new hardware

[–] Holytimes@sh.itjust.works 0 points 46 minutes ago

Because till recently gaming on Linux was a f****** joke and meant being really easy to install and basically a derivative of Ubuntu without having to deal with canonical made it a popular choice for all of the long-time Linux uses. So it's just what they suggested.

In reality meant is no better than just telling people to install Ubuntu or Debian if they want to game. If you just play older games then it's whatever and it doesn't really matter. But if you're trying to do some niche gaming like VR or something, basically anything that uses apt is a massive pain in the f****** ass

Sure it works but you almost always end up waiting months longer than everyone else for fixes and considering some things can get updated multiple times a week for major fixes. Having to wait months for a big cumulative thing is just not okay.

Definitely! So if you're using specialized hardware or software or third-party apps. A lot of stuff has actually gone to the point where they don't even support Debian and Ubuntu or other activate systems. They only support Fedora or Arch

Since those are the only ones that really ever have a up-to-date libraries to actually be usable for purpose without having to do a bunch of funky s***.

Debian like normal is your best option if it works for you, it is the most reliable that you can really get. But the moment something is outside of scope of it. You're almost always better off just using literally anything f****** else.

[–] tempest@lemmy.ca 10 points 8 hours ago (1 children)

Mint is Debian based but isn't Debian.

Same with Ubuntu.

The reason people recommend mint is it's easy to install and has a familiar DE.

[–] Die4Ever@retrolemmy.com 2 points 8 hours ago

I was talking about the update timing, Mint isn't very up to date which can have downsides

[–] jollyrogue@lemmy.ml 5 points 11 hours ago

GPU drivers and DEs lagging behind, mostly.

Something like Fedora which releases newer code quicker will provide a better desktop/laptop experience. It’s the same reason other stable distros, like the EL distros, aren’t the best for desktops/laptops.

Historically, desktop applications would also be versions behind, but Flatpak really helps with this.

At this point, Debian is probably fine as a distro for a few year old computer that won’t be helped by fractional scaling. Pick a DE and install applications from Flathub.

[–] egerlach@lemmy.ca 9 points 9 hours ago (1 children)

My FP right now:

[–] vala@lemmy.dbzer0.com 6 points 8 hours ago (1 children)

The fact the other post was on /selfhosted kind of makes op's point.

[–] egerlach@lemmy.ca 3 points 8 hours ago

It felt like a "Missed Connections" ad in a newspaper. (If you're under 40, you might have to look up what that is)

[–] vithigar@lemmy.ca 65 points 14 hours ago (1 children)

For reasons similar to why plain bread doesn't show up in sandwich recommendations.

[–] Kronusdark@lemmy.world 18 points 13 hours ago (1 children)

That's my take too... it's certainly a soild choice, but not incredibly exciting.

[–] eldavi@lemmy.ml 18 points 12 hours ago (2 children)

boring is awesome if you need to just work all the time and for a long time.

[–] Holytimes@sh.itjust.works 1 points 43 minutes ago

Debian is the absolute goat so long as your work flow fits inside of the scope of Debian which 99% of everybody's well, even most regular normal gamers will do just fine in Debian using flat packs.

You just have to also accept the fact that if you're doing something niche like VR gaming or using weird third-party custom hardware or something Debian sucks ass. A lot of my VR kit straight up doesn't even support anything that uses apt.

It only supports Fedora and Arch. Because a lot of it straight up will not work with flat pack anything. There's just no support and s*** brakes constantly. You need up-to-date libraries and some of these libraries update multiple times a week. It's just not inside the scope of something like Debian.

Always try Debian first. If it doesn't work then try something else. It's usually the best rule of thumb.

[–] erebion@news.erebion.eu 1 points 1 hour ago

That's why I recommend it for non-technical users that just need something to browse the web, Debian will not disappoint them.

Also, GNOME is good for that. Many believe it has to look like Windows for less technical people, but people nowadays mostly are more used to Android than Windows, so having overview of open apps, a menu with shutdown and brightness and volume and sort of an app launcher seems quite natural to them.

Recently installed it for people that have never used Linux before and they immediately got it. One of the two struggles with writing emails and attaching files and things like that, but GNOME is simple for them.

Often simple solutions are the best, flashy solutions break and don't give the stability that's expected.

[–] ozymandias117@lemmy.world 9 points 9 hours ago (1 children)

The reason I don't recommend it by default is that there is no updater across releases.

The official upgrade process is to modify apt sources files and run upgrade, then full-upgrade, etc.

That's fine for me but it makes it hard to recommend to people who may not be as willing to deal with modifying system files and reading some upgrade notes

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[–] Acklavidian@lemmy.world 1 points 6 hours ago

I haven't messed with Debian in a while but I remember the install being a hassle for all of my devices. But in my experience when I go to compile something I have to tediously update scores of libraries as dependency issues metastisize throughout the system. At some point I think to my self "who am I an Ubuntu developer or something?" and I go download some upstream distro like Ubuntu or PopOS.

[–] antimidas@sopuli.xyz 36 points 14 hours ago* (last edited 14 hours ago) (2 children)

One of the main historical reasons was the Debian project's puritan approach to open source, meaning the distro was very picky about what it could easily run on. As an example, most network drivers for Realtek nics weren't included out of the box as they contained non-free code, there was no direct way to install Nvidia drivers instead of nouveau, a lot of the hardware didn't work in the installer unless you sideloaded the drivers from a usb stick and so on.

There was a non-free ISO version to get around this, but you needed to know of it to use it, and it wasn't provided anywhere by default. The download page for it was just a barebone directory listing within the mirror. No link or information was provided for it on the main project page.

Starting from version 12 or 13 (don't remember exactly) proprietary drivers have been included in the installation images, which removed the biggest pain point (IMO) for novice users. Apart from that Debian has been one of the easier distros to install, and has things like a considerably better experience when updating to the next major release. It's not really slower to update packages than Ubuntu, as I'd be wary of recommending the non-LTS versions to novice users. They tend to be quite unstable compared to LTS.

Personally I've daily driven Debian for close to five years, on all my devices except the work laptop. That one is running Ubuntu 24.04 as the employer requires either that or Fedora for Linux users.

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[–] ClathrateG@hexbear.net 12 points 13 hours ago* (last edited 13 hours ago)

I guess its cause when people ask for distro recommendations they're usually new to Linux, thus a more user-friendly distro that's built on-top of Debian like a flavour of Ubuntu or Mint is a better fit than straight Debian

[–] AnnaFrankfurter@lemmy.ml 1 points 7 hours ago

Debian always has been a stable distro. But earlier it lacked some good DE. And most beginners didn't know or thought it was daunting to install DE. That's why it got left out but now in past 4-5 years it has been pretty good.

[–] pastermil@sh.itjust.works 1 points 7 hours ago

I use Debian as one of my daily drivers. I wouldn't recommend the vanilla version to beginners, but I'd recommend LMDE.

[–] Lumelore@lemmy.blahaj.zone 4 points 10 hours ago

While Debian is my preferred distro, I wouldn't reccomend it to others unless they are techy and don't mind fiddling with things. I absolutely wouldn't reccomend it to my grandma (I would reccomend her Mint though) and probably not to someone who just wants to play games, especially if they have an Nvidia card. I do game on Debian with a 3060, but it was cumbersome getting stuff working properly because of old drivers. I did get it working, but I think most people just want to play their games and not deal with that. I also have a nearly 10 year old laptop with Debian, and since it's so old, everything does, "just work", but I imagine most people aren't also using the same 10 year old laptop.

[–] chgxvjh@hexbear.net 5 points 11 hours ago* (last edited 11 hours ago)

Why would one recommend Debian? I guess being actually community made might be worth it for some.

It's not particularly beginner friendly.

apt is kinda meh.

Using up-to-date software isn't just for the users. It's for the devs too so they don't need to deal with bug reports for long fixed issues.

[–] TheModerateTankie@hexbear.net 6 points 12 hours ago

Outside of security patches probably won't be the latest version of apps available, so the software you use can be out of date and you will have to wiat for new features that have been. Flatpak mostly solves this for gui user-level apps, but it's not set up by default and can require tinkering with permissions to fix some issues. If you have new hardware it might not work well with the kernel that comes installed, but you can enable backports and get a newer one. Practically half the linux exo-system is built on top of debian, so you can get a different distro built on debian but with better default experience or custom guis for certain tasks like managing drivers, so people you can save time and not have to dive into terminal commands following how-to guides for various things.

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